R/C model aircraft fatalities recently...........Be careful out there!

[martin collins 1]

I have seen two reports of deaths caused by r/c model aircraft, the first one happened about a week ago in Spain involving a gas turbine jet which struck another modeler on the head as he was crossing the strip to retrieve his landed model, the article said the jet was landing when it hit him. 

https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2023/06/01/man-killed-by-model-airplane-after-getting-struck-on-head-in-spains-valencia-area/

 

Whilst looking at that this one came up, is this a new one or an old article with today`s date at the head of the paper?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-177139/Teenager-killed-hit-model-plane.html

 

Sorry just seen this first one in a previous post.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by martin collins 1

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The Tara Lipscombe tragedy was in 2003. 

[Engine Doctor]

That second report was for an accident thst occured 20 years ago on Dartford heath. Tragic as it was why has this been brought up due to the recent tragic accident in Spain ? 

Considering the millions of rc flights each year in the uk its probably one of the safest out door hobbies around when compared to  football, rugby, cycling  or horse riding.

Martin beat me to it with date . 

[Cuban8]

With the best will in the world, accidents will happen in all manner of sports and activities, and very sadly, some do result in the very worst outcome. All we can do is reduce the chances of things going wrong, and this can usually be achieved by sensible precautions, and rules and regs that are practical and workable.

I do think some believe in the unrealistic expectation that we can inhabit a totally risk free world, and every second of our lives should be regulated, risk asessed and controlled  to an extreme degree. The answer is to be found in the middle ground, and TBH, most of the time the balance is about right.

Accidents in UK industry are still very common, but miniscule compared to the numbers maimed and killed only a century or less ago. I guess the most dangerous persuit that most of us take part in is driving a car, but thanks to better design, motorway speed limits, seatbelts and controls to drinking and driving etc we now only manage to kill about a third of the number of people yearly in car crashes than we did in the 1960s. And that with vastly increased traffic volumes now. I have a feeling that one of the safest places to be would be flying the atlantic in a modern jet!

Our hobby is not totally without risk, and sometimes, very rarely, the worst has happened. Given how our pastime can be regarded as frivolous, and maybe even childish for adults to persue by those who don't have a clue about us in the news media, we always have to be careful how we present ourselves and go about our hobby.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Cuban8

[Zflyer]

I always chuckle, though perhaps should not, when people use air travel as a standard for safeness regarding accident (fatality) figures,i.e. death/injuries per mile.

 Most aircraft accidents happen during takeoff/landing. The mileage is considerably reduced!! 

Dont use the miles inbetween,planes have to take off and land.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Zflyer
Spell8ng, again

[Jon H]

I agree that the rarity of these events means we are doing a pretty good job collectively. Equally though, accidents like this remind us that the rarity of the event is often the cause as complacency creeps in. A small lapse in concentration is all it takes for someone to be injured or killed. 

 

1 hour ago, Cuban8 said:

Given how our pastime can be regarded as frivolous, and maybe even childish for adults to persue by those who don't have a clue about us in the news media, we always have to be careful how we present ourselves and go about our hobby.

 

This is very true and i think that with rc flying under closer scrutiny than ever before we do need to bring our A game to the field every day we fly. 

[J D 8]

 Strange is it not that things like sliding down a snowy slope is looked upon a a normal thing to want to do even though many are injured.

Riding big motorbikes is mostly pleasure activity these days. In 2020 285 riders were killed and over 4000 seriously injured. 

  If either of those activity's were invented today they would be banned along with horse riding, deep sea diving, ect ect ect.

 

[Kim Taylor]

A propos of nothing in particular, many years ago my son raced karts, then cars. My daughter rode horses (and still does, for that matter).

Financially, it was a struggle for us. Their maternal grandparents flatly refused to contribute to my son's (in their eyes deadly dangerous) hobby, while encouraging my daughter in her chosen path. Now, I know which is the most dangerous, which over time has been proven by daughters visits to A&E and orthopaedic depts. and her broken & pinned arm, leg and ankle. No.1 son, however, has never broken a bone whilst competing over a number of years, although to be fair he did injure his lower back in a kart when he was 15, which has never fully healed.

I have always ridden bikes - 'nuff said. Everything and anything can be dangerous, it's the old risk vs. reward conundrum.

Kim

[EvilC57]

I’d like to think that part of the reason we fly model aeroplanes, particularly fast jets & EDFs, is the thrill and the slight edge of danger they bring, rather in the way people ride fast motorbikes. As Jon says above, we have to do what we can to minimise that risk though.

You would think that sitting on a nice peaceful riverbank fishing would be a safe pursuit. A quick Google search says otherwise: RoSPA Figures show that between 2012 and 2016, 1,029 people died in accidental drownings in the UK’s inland waters. Out of those, 91 were anglers, made up of 46 dying by drowning at sea and 45 in freshwater.

 

Obviously I appreciate that a lot more people go fishing than fly models, but as far as I know there’s no campaign to ban fishing on health & safety grounds.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by EvilC57

[paul devereux]

20 hours ago, Zflyer said:

I always chuckle, though perhaps should not, when people use air travel as a standard for safeness regarding accident (fatality) figures,i.e. death/injuries per mile.

 Most aircraft accidents happen during takeoff/landing. The mileage is considerably reduced!! 

Dont use the miles inbetween,planes have to take off and land.

But what you are saying isn't valid. The fatality rate is per passenger mile travelled, which makes flying safer than other modes of transport. Your argument is akin to saying the worst place to go if you are ill is to a hospital as so many people die there.

[paul devereux]

21 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

The Tara Lipscombe tragedy was in 2003. 

At the risk of being controversial, I believe model flying was banned following this incident:Model aircraft ban after girl's death (kentonline.co.uk)

[Rich Griff]

Could not read the whole girls death incident due to phone issues but what does a " voluntary ban" mean ?

 

No matter ( about the phone problems I mean )

 

There have been several incident ending in real tradigy in the past involving aviation, transport, nature, even crossing the road even.

 

For me motorcycles are a pleasure and basic transport. Much more "fun' between zero and the speed limit rather than "TT" style riding.

 

At a rather busy slope soaring event not once did I witness a "landing" alert. It should have been audible ( by SHOUTING ) many times.

 

There was an incident at that venue that day but thankfully no real injury.

 

Two old friends, may be with reduced "hearing", may be not. 

 

Noisey jet......

 

A break down in procedure, lack of "landing" alarm ?

 

What is the word for landing in Spanish ? Does it sound like another Spanish word I wonder ?

 

We must learn from this tradigy.

 

May be at busy flying sites a dedicated flight line safety officer/marshal to make sure the needed safety rules are obeyed.

 

But what of small groups or lone fliers ?

 

I can shout very loudly if needed, but what of deaf people, morons and keeping my eyes on the model when it's flying not to mention what's going on around me ?

 

I fly in isolated sites some relatively deserted but people can and do "turn up"........thankfully not the cops, it would be a waste of Thier time...being fully legal.

 

 

I am sure all busy clubs have a dedicated flight line marshal already ?

 

Maybe an unmistakable "hooter" alarm for when a landing is about to happen...

Statutory nuisance....no.

[paul devereux]

Here is a more comprehensive report on the 2003 accident:Toy plane that killed girl badly assembled | The Times (archive.ph)

Apparently there had been complaints about model planes crashing at the site for years, and the pilot in question was considered a learner/inexperienced and his plane was badly built and maintained.

There is another report (of a US fatality) where the (large) model had had numerous repairs, none of which were really satisfactory:Bizarre Death Caused by a Model Airplane | Office of Justice Programs (ojp.gov)

My point about these accidents is that they are all probably avoidable if people took proper care and had consideration for others. No need for shouting warnings, etc- they shouldn't be necessary.

Edited June 15, 2023 by paul devereux

[Rich Griff]

No need to shout warnings ?

 

Telepathy is not reliable

 

This is said with great respect.

 

Will read the two reports if the phone will let me.

 

Safe flying is no accident, a blast from the past.

 

A badly repaired aircraft, train, car, bridge etc. Etc. Etc is "negligence" surely ?

 

As to wiggly about and then thinking you can do a marathon is just asking for trouble.

 

A above said with great respect.

[Zflyer]

1 hour ago, paul devereux said:

But what you are saying isn't valid. The fatality rate is per passenger mile travelled, which makes flying safer than other modes of transport. Your argument is akin to saying the worst place to go if you are ill is to a hospital as so many people die there.

Thank you, however it is how the stats are viewed. Per passenger mile is excellent for the quote. When the risk element is attached then it becomes less safe. 

[leccyflyer]

21 minutes ago, paul devereux said:

Here is a more comprehensive report on the 2003 accident:Toy plane that killed girl badly assembled | The Times (archive.ph)

Apparently there had been complaints about model planes crashing at the site for years, and the pilot in question was considered a learner/inexperienced and his plane was badly built and maintained.

There is another report (of a US fatality) where the (large) model had had numerous repairs, none of which were really satisfactory:Bizarre Death Caused by a Model Airplane | Office of Justice Programs (ojp.gov)

My point about these accidents is that they are all probably avoidable if people took proper care and had consideration for others. No need for shouting warnings, etc- they shouldn't be necessary.

Could I suggest that until you actually have some experience in flying model aeroplanes in a more organised shared space than just down at the local playing field that you refrain from giving such terrible advice? 

Communication is key when flying with others - on retrieving a model it is good practice to inform other flyers that you are retrieving, let them know when you are on the field, let them know when you are clear, let them know when you are taking off, when you are landing, if you are making a low pass - communication.

[paul devereux]

8 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

Could I suggest that until you actually have some experience in flying model aeroplanes in a more organised shared space than just down at the local playing field that you refrain from giving such terrible advice? 

Communication is key when flying with others - on retrieving a model it is good practice to inform other flyers that you are retrieving, let them know when you are on the field, let them know when you are clear, let them know when you are taking off, when you are landing, if you are making a low pass - communication.

I know. I know the procedure at flying fields, model and full-size. I know that golfers also shout warnings. What I'm saying is that we should not rely on that instead of thinking safety.

We are probably on the same page, no one is more cognisant than me when it comes to safety.

Edit- I realise I said in the post you are referring to that I actually said no need- that is obviously ridiculous, I was responding to a previous poster who said this: I can shout very loudly if needed, but what of deaf people, morons and keeping my eyes on the model when it's flying not to mention what's going on around me ?

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by paul devereux

[Jon H]

Sorry Paul but you are way off base. As the others have already said communication between pilots is vital to prevent accidents. 

 

You can think safety all you like but you cant read the minds of those around you and they cant read yours. Unless you tell people loud and clear what you are doing you open the door for the grim reaper to walk through. 

 

If you are familiar with full size then you know that runway incursion is one of the most dangerous things that can possibly happen and there have been many serious accidents because of it. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Jon - Laser Engines

[gangster]

It is good for us to have the discussion and we need to be aware and think about these things. 
Some comment,however, have mentioned ski-ing, motorcycling  and other potentially activities but I am not sure where the comparison is. Sure people injure or kill themselves doing various things but surely there is no comparison. With model flying we are talking potential injury to third innocent third parties. There can surely be little or no personal risk in flying fast models such as those mentioned in an earlier post. I do however see this as another nail in the coffin of a hobby that,from many previous comments on this and other forums indicate a dying hobby.  The latest communiqué’s from the BMFA speak of formal risk assessments. How many will relish that responsibility?

[Simon Burch 1]

2 hours ago, EvilC57 said:

I’d like to think that part of the reason we fly model aeroplanes, particularly fast jets & EDFs, is the thrill and the slight edge of danger they bring, rather in the way people ride fast motorbikes. As Jon says above, we have to do what we can to minimise that risk though.

You would think that sitting on a nice peaceful riverbank fishing would be a safe pursuit. A quick Google search says otherwise: RoSPA Figures show that between 2012 and 2016, 1,029 people died in accidental drownings in the UK’s inland waters. Out of those, 91 were anglers, made up of 46 dying by drowning at sea and 45 in freshwater.

 

Obviously I appreciate that a lot more people go fishing than fly models, but as far as I know there’s no campaign to ban fishing on health & safety grounds.

 

 

Regarding the 'element of danger' that flying a fast and/or heavy model brings, I agree that this is a major attraction for many.  I'd add that endangering other people should not form part of that risk.  The adrenalin-inducing risk should be confined to the model, the flyer's pride, and the flyers wallet.

 

[paul devereux]

25 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Sorry Paul but you are way off base. As the others have already said communication between pilots is vital to prevent accidents. 

 

You can think safety all you like but you cant read the minds of those around you and they cant read yours. Unless you tell people loud and clear what you are doing you open the door for the grim reaper to walk through. 

 

If you are familiar with full size then you know that runway incursion is one of the most dangerous things that can possibly happen and there have been many serious accidents because of it. 

I know, I have already attempted to clarify what I intended to say:

 I know. I know the procedure at flying fields, model and full-size. I know that golfers also shout warnings. What I'm saying is that we should not rely on that instead of thinking safety.

We are probably on the same page, no one is more cognisant than me when it comes to safety.

Edit- I realise I said in the post you are referring to that I actually said no need- that is obviously ridiculous, I was responding to a previous poster who said this: I can shout very loudly if needed, but what of deaf people, morons and keeping my eyes on the model when it's flying not to mention what's going on around me ?

[Eric Robson]

It is the responsibility of the person going on  to the strip for whatever reason to check before doing so and let everyone know he is there. It is the pilots responsibility to keep his eyes on the plane at all times and call out take off and landings etc .

[J D 8]

38 minutes ago, gangster said:

It is good for us to have the discussion and we need to be aware and think about these things. 
Some comment,however, have mentioned ski-ing, motorcycling  and other potentially activities but I am not sure where the comparison is. 

 

  I was not so much making a comparison as just a point as to how we humans seem to accept death and injury doing some things, yet hands are thrown in the air when it happens in other activity's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cuban8]

57 minutes ago, gangster said:

It is good for us to have the discussion and we need to be aware and think about these things. 
Some comment,however, have mentioned ski-ing, motorcycling  and other potentially activities but I am not sure where the comparison is. Sure people injure or kill themselves doing various things but surely there is no comparison. With model flying we are talking potential injury to third innocent third parties. There can surely be little or no personal risk in flying fast models such as those mentioned in an earlier post. I do however see this as another nail in the coffin of a hobby that,from many previous comments on this and other forums indicate a dying hobby.  The latest communiqué’s from the BMFA speak of formal risk assessments. How many will relish that responsibility?

Perhaps not so clear cut as you suggest, Gangster. We operate in a variety of manners such as alone on private land, alone in a public place, with any number of others either in a closed club environment or a club environment that is open to the public etc. Each has potential risks to those involved and not involved, and for the most part, simple rules and procedures will reduce the chances of accidents to a very small amount. Flick through the BMFA handbook that has developed greatly over the years- just about every eventuality is covered in terms of best operating practice, no matter what or wherever one flys - we all just need to follow it. Clubs may well have their own ideas to suit local conditions. For instance, how many models are allowed to be airborne at any one time at your club? Four, five, six.....no limit? Is every one obliged to fly a strict circuit pattern or is it a bit more loose?

Both of my clubs will not permit a flyer to stand on the patch behind his model to take off. The pilot remains in the flightbox with the other pilots at all times and aircraft are recovered by taxiing to a clear area off to one side. Recovering a dead stick model where it might be a hazard to other models being landed, is handled by good communication and in a manner suitable to not put anyone at risk. If that means having to wait until a natural break in the flying before collection, then so be it.

From the BMFA Handbook......"Do not taxi in or out of the pits area. Wheel or carry your model well clear of the pits before commencing taxying and stop the model well clear when taxiing back after landing. Do not put other flyers at risk".

I suspect that none of us are perfect, and it's usually a combination of circumstances either for an individual or within a group, that will come together and given a bit of bad luck or a moment's inattention, result in disaster.

I don't agree that we're hammering nails into the hobby's coffin, or indeed that our hobby is dead or dying. Changing certainly, with pressure on flying sites and perhaps not as attractive to so many younger people as it once was, but on the whole I'd say we're doing OK.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Cuban8

[Engine Doctor]

Flyers who gather together to fly with no club structure or basic rules are imo an accident waiting to happen . Unfortunately when an accident does happen the kneejerk reaction from most local authorities is to ban all flying from that site as was the case in Dartford.

Now before slope flyers all shout me down i will say ive witnessed it first hand at a local slope. Flyers turn up and pit just where they think and go fky without even a jot of thought for other flyers. No verbal comunication re launching or landing. Just im allright Jack, and that was when crystals were still prominent ! 2.4 helped with frequency clash crashes but a friend who still goes sloping says little has changed at that site despite his and a small groups efforts.

Jets and  or any fast powerful models are another risk entirely and need organisationat sites where they are flown.

We need to comunicate on the flight line and new members and some old ones have to be encouraged to call out their intentions . 

Accidents will always happen but we must try to lessen the risk witnout overdoing the rules and killing the fun.