A new worry for me- are Lipos safe?

[Jon H]

2 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

 

You don't really need a restraint for an electric model but some form of making sure you don't accidentally start the motor is pretty much essential

 

you absolutely need a restraint, more so than for an ic model as an ic model will not just start itself. 

 

At my old club we mandated all models were restrained after more than a few incidents where electric models decided to exit the pits of their own accord. Fortunately other safety protections in the form of our field layout prevented any serious incidents, but we didnt want to take any chances. 

[GrumpyGnome]

I'm still not 100% in agreement about restraints for electric models but I'm sure we could start a thread about it .... in fact there probably is already one.  🙂

 

Only point I would make is the comment regarding range checking - if it fails a range check, it'll go into failsafe, i.e. throttle closed. Or, it should.

[KenC]

On 27/07/2023 at 10:41, leccyflyer said:

I'm considering adding such a container, outside my workshop, tucked away out of harm's way. If it were for year round use it would also need to be well insulated, to keep a reasonable temperature at all times. Storing lipos in a hot, enclosed, container in summer is just asking for trouble.

Of course !  A light bulb just flashed in my head ...... so the idea of a shed in the garden with an ammo box with dry wall fire retardant inner for storage , and a Bat Safe for charging in the shed , seemed so plausible.  Somehow the bubble burst when this was mentioned !  What about year long temperature variations ?     As for the should I shouldn't I discussion, I have a variation........ Every insurance company is looking for risk and basing their premiums on this. With the boat fire and batteries being the focus, how long is it before the suits join the dots and we are disallowed from risky behaviours or insurance nullified because of our lack of " due diligence"   

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Running the club's flying school, I put the planes on the runway into wind get behind the plane and plug the battery in, after landing strictly no taxing, behind the plane and unplug the battery.

[EvilC57]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

you absolutely need a restraint, more so than for an ic model as an ic model will not just start itself. 

I’ll second that. The only models I don’t use a restraint for are small (70mm and less) EDFs, which I usually power up on my lap sitting in my chair in the pits.

[gangster]

Personally I believe that a restraint is more even more relevant for an electric model than an IC . Even if a cut off switch is fitted it can be left armed. We have discussed on this very forum a number of times years ago that it was impossible to put a cut of switch on what was probably the most popular radio at the time the original DX6. Of which there must be many thousands still in use. 

[leccyflyer]

The most basic rule of electric flight is that the model is live -or to be considered as live - from the second the battery is connected. Different clubs have different rules on restraints, but when you connect the flight battery you ought to be ready to fly, never leave an armed electric model hanging about in the pits.

 

My own current MO is to operate from the back of my car. The model is held in a model stand. The transmitter is then switched on, the flight battery is put into the model and connected and the model is immediately carried to the flight line for take off. I never run the motor before being on the field itself. For my larger models, at the local club which has tables,  with restraints, I'll take the model to the table and make that final connection on the table, before placing the model on the field for take off.

[leccyflyer]

21 hours ago, KenC said:

Of course !  A light bulb just flashed in my head ...... so the idea of a shed in the garden with an ammo box with dry wall fire retardant inner for storage , and a Bat Safe for charging in the shed , seemed so plausible.  Somehow the bubble burst when this was mentioned !  What about year long temperature variations ?     As for the should I shouldn't I discussion, I have a variation........ Every insurance company is looking for risk and basing their premiums on this. With the boat fire and batteries being the focus, how long is it before the suits join the dots and we are disallowed from risky behaviours or insurance nullified because of our lack of " due diligence"   

I'll fit a max-min thermometer in the storage container and monitor those temperatures. My intention is to fit as much insulation as I can get in there -my recent workshop build has demonstrated how fantastic insulation can be at controlling the temperature inside a fully insulated box, the amount of energy needed to maintain a steady temperature year round is minimised.  The unit will also be situated out of direct sunlight, since I'm more concerned about potentially overheating the lipos in storage, rather than them getting too cold in the winter, as they are tolerant of temperatures below freezing, it just needs some forethought to bring them up to temperature before charging.

 

If the temperature control provided by the insulation proves inadequate, I'll have to have a rethink, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

[Trevor]

22 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Running the club's flying school, I put the planes on the runway into wind get behind the plane and plug the battery in, after landing strictly no taxing, behind the plane and unplug the battery.

Surely this results in people being on the runway for longer than necessary and could be considered more risky than taxiing out and in (from beside the pilots' box, not in and out of the pits!).

Edited July 31, 2023 by Trevor

[MattyB]

23 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Running the club's flying school, I put the planes on the runway into wind get behind the plane and plug the battery in, after landing strictly no taxing, behind the plane and unplug the battery.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor said:

Surely this results in people being on the runway for longer than necessary and could be considered more risky than taxiing out and in (from beside the pilots' box, not in and out of the pits!).

 

I have to agree with @Trevor - @Paul De Tourtoulon, you may be minimising the risk associated with a live electric model, but you are significantly increasing the time you spend on an active landing strip by doing this. In most of my aircraft mounting the battery takes between 30 and 120 seconds (depending on the access method), and in some instances requires a screwdriver, so doing this would seem pretty unadvisable. Or does your club only allow training with no-one else in the air?

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

I'll fit a max-min thermometer in the storage container and monitor those temperatures. My intention is to fit as much insulation as I can get in there -my recent workshop build has demonstrated how fantastic insulation can be at controlling the temperature inside a fully insulated box, the amount of energy needed to maintain a steady temperature year round is minimised.  The unit will also be situated out of direct sunlight, since I'm more concerned about potentially overheating the lipos in storage, rather than them getting too cold in the winter, as they are tolerant of temperatures below freezing, it just needs some forethought to bring them up to temperature before charging.

 

If the temperature control provided by the insulation proves inadequate, I'll have to have a rethink, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

 

If you have power nearby you could fit a cheap wireless temperature sensor, and have that setup to alert you on your phone or even have it linked to a heating or cooling device. The latter option could increase the risk of a fire though, so I'd be more inclined to stick with basic high/low temp alerts.

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by MattyB

[leccyflyer]

24 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

 

I have to agree with @Trevor - @Paul De Tourtoulon, you may be minimising the risk associated with a live electric model, but you are significantly increasing the time you spend on an active landing strip by doing this. In most of my aircraft mounting the battery takes between 30 and 120 seconds (depending on the access method), and in some instances requires a screwdriver, so doing this would seem pretty unadvisable. Or does your club only allow training with no-one else in the air?

 

Agreed - I'd certainly be less than chuffed if I were flying and someone is faffing about on the runway connecting their battery. The whole airside portion of the field is typically considered a live area and there should be no problem whatsoever taking a model into that area with the battery already connected - after all, you would be carrying an IC model into that area with the engine running. You don't go onto the runway and then start trying to start your engine.

[leccyflyer]

20 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

If you have power nearby you could fit a cheap wireless temperature sensor, and have that setup to alert you on your phone or even have it linked to a heating or cooling device. The latter option could increase the risk of a fire though, so I'd be more inclined to stick with basic high/low temp alerts.

 

Unfortunately no easy access to power - key thing is to monitor how hot the inside of the unit could get in summer and, as I said, I'm being careful to locate it out of direct sunlight. If it stays below 25 degrees C then I'll be quite happy with that.

[Tim Kearsley]

On 30/07/2023 at 10:49, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Running the club's flying school, I put the planes on the runway into wind get behind the plane and plug the battery in, after landing strictly no taxing, behind the plane and unplug the battery.

I don't think my club would put up with that.  Our philosophy is to minimise the time that anyone is on the strip.  We have two model tables (with restraints) out close by the strip specifically for preparation/final checks on models and for connecting up the battery on electric models.  We have a club rule which says that electric models should not be carried from the pits to the strip (some 50 metres) with battery connected.  I don't really see how taxiing a model is any more dangerous than someone wandering on to the runway to remove power from a model. 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

My only caveat on taxying is that the model should never be taxied directly towards the flight line - parallel past it and a 90 degree turn towards a sterile area seems best practice. 

[Tim Kearsley]

3 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

My only caveat on taxying is that the model should never be taxied directly towards the flight line - parallel past it and a 90 degree turn towards a sterile area seems best practice. 

Agree 100%.

[Geoff S]

16 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

My only caveat on taxying is that the model should never be taxied directly towards the flight line - parallel past it and a 90 degree turn towards a sterile area seems best practice. 

 I get great satisfaction from placing my model on the runway near to the pilot box, then (after checking with anyone flying if it's OK) taxiing out, taking off, enjoying the flight, and landing before taxiing again to the edge of the runway for retrieval.  I almost never stand behind the model for take-off.  If I'm on my own I will taxi right to my model stand but obviously not if there are people about.

[PatMc]

3 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Unfortunately no easy access to power - key thing is to monitor how hot the inside of the unit could get in summer and, as I said, I'm being careful to locate it out of direct sunlight. If it stays below 25 degrees C then I'll be quite happy with that.

It might be worth painting the box white or silver if that wouldn't make it an eyesore to the garden management person. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

4 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Agreed - I'd certainly be less than chuffed if I were flying and someone is faffing about on the runway connecting their battery.

It takes 10 seconds if you faff about for longer, you shouldn't be flying, and if it annoys you don't come to our club.😄

[leccyflyer]

11 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

It takes 10 seconds if you faff about for longer, you shouldn't be flying, and if it annoys you don't come to our club.😄

It depends on the model configuration and how the battery packs are accessed. I certainly couldn't connect the battery pack up on my Gladiator in less than 10 seconds.

 

The likelihood of me visiting your club is somewhere between none and zero, but I don't believe  that any of the many clubs that I have visited and flown at in the last thirty years has a rule that the batteries must be connected only on the runway.

 

Just out of interest, with your glow engines, do you take them to the runway and only then attempt to start them?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

59 minutes ago, Geoff S said:

 I get great satisfaction from placing my model on the runway near to the pilot box, then (after checking with anyone flying if it's OK) taxiing out, taking off, enjoying the flight, and landing before taxiing again to the edge of the runway for retrieval.  I almost never stand behind the model for take-off.  If I'm on my own I will taxi right to my model stand but obviously not if there are people about.

In my opinion, the taxi out and return after landing are an integral - and potentially very satisfying - part of scale flying, especially with a larger model. 
 

Quite how grovelling around with, I assume, an unrestrained model on the ground and in an active part of the flying area can be safer than fitting a battery in a controlled environment in a safe area of the pits without potential time pressure from those already flying escapes me. 

[Dickw]

43 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

It takes 10 seconds if you faff about for longer, you shouldn't be flying, and if it annoys you don't come to our club.😄

Hand launched model with the battery under the "bolt on" wings. I would definitely be unpopular at your club 😁 - well over 10 seconds to connect up, bolt on, and check the controls.

 

Dick

[leccyflyer]

Years ago, corresponding with Dereck Woodward and he was bemoaning having to take the wings off on an IC model converted to electric. In the conversation we had an epiphany that the wing was really just a big , well retained hatch and I didn't stress over it again. 😄

[Geoff S]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

It takes 10 seconds if you faff about for longer, you shouldn't be flying, and if it annoys you don't come to our club.😄

 

Several of my models need to be inverted to fit and connect the battery.  That's a lot more easily done on my model stand than trying to faff about on the runway.

[GaryW]

18 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Years ago, corresponding with Dereck Woodward and he was bemoaning having to take the wings off on an IC model converted to electric. In the conversation we had an epiphany that the wing was really just a big , well retained hatch and I didn't stress over it again. 😄

 

I Have 2 planes one being an electric converted IC model which both have to have the wing removed to access the lipos