The Big Question ?

[David Hazell 1]

On 15/08/2023 at 08:49, Peter Miller said:

 

"Leeccy wrote: "anyone who covers a funfighter in glossy film in a completely hideous colour scheme, without paying even the slightest attention to what it is, should be subject to a drumhead court martial, have their covering iron broken over the officer's knee and be ceremonially drummed out of the Brownies.""

 

I have complete and total disdain for anyone who builds a scale model and then does not use a scale colour scheme.

 

On 15/08/2023 at 09:23, RICHARD WILLS said:

Ha ! Ive got you all going now , lively and constructive debate . There is some great wit on this forum if you know where to look .  (disdain gag!) 

Plus Peter's "Branded " scenario (Who remembers that series ) . Joking aside though ,Trevor's Hurricane actually works because its not just what solarfilm he had under the bed ,its a believable scheme in the modern world of sponsorship . 

 

 

Looking again, it appears the comment about disdain is also tongue in cheek and refers to another thread on the forum, I probably haven't been keeping up to date enough on this forum and didn't spot it was taking the mickey. Again, too tired when I started reading it and didn't know enough about the subject!

[RICHARD WILLS]

Ok Chaps , I'm sure we're all on the same page here really . David , I apologise if Ive unwittingly upset anyone wanting an orange Spitfire and If I encouraged anyone else to continue that jibe then I'll take responsibility for them as well . 

However this thread started off as an exploratory mission to get behind what people are doing at the moment and would want to do to keep our building side alive . 

As we all had guessed, the art of covering and finishing is a huge barrier to not just newbies , but also people who are excellent builders , hence the reference to people discovering or rediscovering fun fighters as a quick build . 

The follow on thought with that is that if a person decides to swerve the camo for plain solarfilm because he just want to use the model in its own right , then fair enough , but if that "block " is permanent , then the likes of my Spitfire can never compete with , say an Avios or Dynam Spit .

The consequence of that is , no more British Kit manufacturing or people like me , who listen and try to fulfil the wishes of my customers (who I actually see as remotely located fellow fliers and friends ) .

Ive spoken to you in the past David and like the others you are a very nice chap , so if its ok with you lets put that one to bed . 

For the record, putting all jokes aside , I have no problem with a plain plastic warbird . But I do if the underlying reason is, its not finished in a scale manner because of the above mentioned barrier . My nature is to try and help people improve so if we can deal with those barriers to give the same chap an honest option , then that is a step forward . 

This small group of like minded builders needs to be bound together more than ever if we want to carry on enjoying our hobby . 

The current email from the BMFA is very ominous and unlike Football and Cricket nobody will miss those silly old duffers with their toy planes . 

So lets come together and enjoy what we have .

[RedBaron]

I don't know about an orange Spitfire, bur wanting a red one seems perfectly reasonable. See G-FIRE.

Edited August 27, 2023 by RedBaron

[Don Fry]

I think you lot are a little on the soft side of left. Proper job, blown “ to be blown from the canons mouth”, with the debris landing on his regiment witnessing punishment. That’ll lern um 

[leccyflyer]

That missing "n" completely changes the meaning of that phrase and the follow up. 😮

[Mike T]

Vergering on the obscene...

[Peter Miller]

23 hours ago, David Hazell 1 said:

 

 

Looking again, it appears the comment about disdain is also tongue in cheek and refers to another thread on the forum, I probably haven't been keeping up to date enough on this forum and didn't spot it was taking the mickey. Again, too tired when I started reading it and didn't know enough about the subject!

In fact I just used the word "Disdain" because it suited the way I felt. I could have used "Disgust" but that would have been too strong.  I can't even see where Disdain" could have been humorous.

[leccyflyer]

Disdain wasn't humorous Peter, it was your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to. We don't all have to like exactly the same things and I'm certainly not at all keen on some of those totally non-scale schemes for what are intended to be at least stand-off scale representations of actual full scale aeroplanes. There's no shortage of sports models that can be finished in whatever scheme the owner desires.

 

My riffing on the message of your post with my follow up  "distain" comment was intended to be humorous.

[leccyflyer]

23 hours ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

Ok Chaps , I'm sure we're all on the same page here really . David , I apologise if Ive unwittingly upset anyone wanting an orange Spitfire and If I encouraged anyone else to continue that jibe then I'll take responsibility for them as well . 

However this thread started off as an exploratory mission to get behind what people are doing at the moment and would want to do to keep our building side alive . 

As we all had guessed, the art of covering and finishing is a huge barrier to not just newbies , but also people who are excellent builders , hence the reference to people discovering or rediscovering fun fighters as a quick build . 

The follow on thought with that is that if a person decides to swerve the camo for plain solarfilm because he just want to use the model in its own right , then fair enough , but if that "block " is permanent , then the likes of my Spitfire can never compete with , say an Avios or Dynam Spit .

The consequence of that is , no more British Kit manufacturing or people like me , who listen and try to fulfil the wishes of my customers (who I actually see as remotely located fellow fliers and friends ) .

Ive spoken to you in the past David and like the others you are a very nice chap , so if its ok with you lets put that one to bed . 

For the record, putting all jokes aside , I have no problem with a plain plastic warbird . But I do if the underlying reason is, its not finished in a scale manner because of the above mentioned barrier . My nature is to try and help people improve so if we can deal with those barriers to give the same chap an honest option , then that is a step forward . 

This small group of like minded builders needs to be bound together more than ever if we want to carry on enjoying our hobby . 

The current email from the BMFA is very ominous and unlike Football and Cricket nobody will miss those silly old duffers with their toy planes . 

So lets come together and enjoy what we have .

That, in bold, is a very large part of what this thread is about and I'm 100% in agreement with that. I see that reluctance to attempt a more scale like finish to be one of the main hurdles which need to be removed if this project is going to be a success.

[Ron Gray]

For what’s it’s worth, my own experience with the incredibly simple Hanky Planky Foamy Woamies was that there was an initial reluctance (from some club members) to even attempt the build, the covering of the finished model wasn’t a real issue and it’s been an eye opener to see what methods people have used, covering film, lam film, parcel tape, brown paper, wall paper, reinforced tape and just plain painted. But then the Hankies are not scale!

[RICHARD WILLS]

Yes , Ive communicated with David and we're all good in the gang again . Its a bit like texting , we can all get a bit out of step . He is one of my Spitty builders and flyers and made a bloody nice job , so obviously we are all made of the same stuff , cut from the same cloth .... . chipped form the same block , fallen from the same apple tree ....

(you get the picture) 

 

I have been thinking quite bit about the finishing and have a few ideas that nobody seems to have tried . Also on a more obvious approach I guarantee that I can walk us through a painted finish with no tools other than a paint brush and three or four Band Q test pots . 

The finishing will be cheap , and need no special tools or skills , yet must be in the ball park or better than a well fettled foamie . 

When you look at the typical offering (this is the eflite one ) the paint job wont be that hard to replicate . In fact I think we can all do way better !

Now , there is a nice little challenge . BTW , I believe this chap is in the £500 bracket , so plenty of incentive .

[RICHARD WILLS]

To my mind , this looks a bit more like where I'm going . 

[Ron Gray]

Oh yes, and it even has an opening engine door, ideal for slipping in that 4S pack - love it.

[Eric Robson]

Have you found some sub miniature 4s packs Ron?

[Martin Dilly 1]

On 27/08/2023 at 09:06, RICHARD WILLS said:

The current email from the BMFA is very ominous and unlike Football and Cricket nobody will miss those silly old duffers with their toy planes . 

So lets come together and enjoy what we have .

Much more to the point, make sure to read Dave Phipps's comments and complete the CAA's questionnaire yourself. The deadline's Sept. 7th. It's a lot more ominous if the CAA get very few responses. Let's flood their in-box with sensible replies, preferably in line with those of the BMFA; model flying is by far the biggest air sport in Britain, so make the CAA aware that the people who take part in it care enough to offer their advice. Don't be one of the silly old duffers who didn't bother.

[Ron Gray]

11 hours ago, Eric Robson said:

Have you found some sub miniature 4s packs Ron?

No but I do have some that have been conveniently reshaped and bent (through extensive use as ground impact absorbing devices) so can be inserted around corners.

[Piers Bowlan]

Meanwhile… back to the OT.

 

Earlier in the thread Richard said £90 for a kit could be too much for a newbie (to paraphrase). I presume ‘newbie’ as in new to building, not new to the hobby. A FW190  in the hands of a tyro pilot will not last very long I suggest.

 

As others have said, there are loads of dyed in the wool builders on this forum, so why lose sleep over how many newbies these kits will attract? There just has to be a reason for mass participation. What better motivation would be the ’RCM&E 2024 WR Mass Build’. These mass builds have attracted a lot of participation in the past. The PSSA A4 Skyhawk mass build sold over 70 Sarik Hobbies kits apparently. Forum members could encourage participation by their MFC, as Ron and others have suggested - mass builds within the RCM&E mass build. The multiple build threads on this forum would encourage others to join in. A thread on covering techniques perhaps. Someone would inevitably try and put an IC engine in one even though they are designed for electric, just to be different. It all adds to the fun.

 

All this hinges on a couple of kit designs being available for delivery late December (many people have spare time available over the Christmas period. The idea is to finish the model in 2024, you don’t have to wait until 1st January to start it! 

Can a couple of kits be developed in that time frame? Over to you Richard.

 

[martin collins 1]

MASS BUILD, MASS BUILD, MASS BUILD 😁👍

[Ron Gray]

22 minutes ago, Piers Bowlan said:

why lose sleep over how many newbies these kits will attract?

I think the whole point is to try and attract those who would normally go for an ARTF, not necessarily newbies’. As Richard posted above, attracting those who normally would shell out £500 on an eFlite FW190, showing them that they can produce their own FW190, it will be considerably cheaper, look a lot better and will fly just as well if not better.

[Ron Gray]

20 minutes ago, martin collins 1 said:

MASS BUILD, MASS BUILD, MASS BUILD 😁👍

Certainly agree! I would also suggest, as I did at some point further up this thread, that there could be the target of a mass fly in at the Best of British event at Buckminster next year. 

[Piers Bowlan]

12 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

I think the whole point is to try and attract those who would normally go for an ARTF, not necessarily newbies’. As Richard posted above, attracting those who normally would shell out £500 on an eFlite FW190, showing them that they can produce their own FW190, it will be considerably cheaper, look a lot better and will fly just as well if not better.

I have never met anyone who has shelled out £500 for a foamy warbird but I would suggest that no matter how cheap, in the main, they would be unlikely to buy, build and finish a kit. If they have money to burn they will just go out and spend another £500 on their next ARTF foamy when the last one gets battered or destroyed. Just my view.

[leccyflyer]

The proposal for an event to highlight the proposed kits was made right back at the beginning of the thread and that seems to be one of the key marketing strategies which has made previous mass builds a success. This isn't about attracting newbies to the hobby - the models are not appropriate for that- it's about encouraging those who haven't built before, who fancy a warbird and might otherwise splurge £500-700 on a 1.5m span RTF electric warbird to save several hundred quid and produce a more robust, simpler, but still good looking model. That ought to have a backstop of experienced builders who will be able to participate as well, some of which are on this forum - the promotion of the idea really also ought to come in the magazine, as there are clearly many readers of the magazine who do not use the forum. Given the chosen subject matter I really think an 80th D-Day Anniversary would be an ideal time for such an event, though there might well be an issue with clashes with other D-Day events which enthusiasts might want to attend. That would give more than sufficient time to develop a mass build project and perhaps get two airframes in the air.

[Piers Bowlan]

34 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

Certainly agree! I would also suggest, as I did at some point further up this thread, that there could be the target of a mass fly in at the Best of British event at Buckminster next year. 

That is a great incentive, the PSSA similarly have their mass build gathering on the Great Orme during the Summer.

 

Once Richards’s prototype model have flown there should be quality videos posted on the forum of them flying as does Richard Harris with his autogyro builds prior to the plan appearing in RCM&E. 

 

Likewise a mass build 2024 article in the Mag would be good for those who don’t frequent the forum.

 

[RICHARD WILLS]

3 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

The proposal for an event to highlight the proposed kits was made right back at the beginning of the thread and that seems to be one of the key marketing strategies which has made previous mass builds a success. This isn't about attracting newbies to the hobby - the models are not appropriate for that- it's about encouraging those who haven't built before, who fancy a warbird and might otherwise splurge £500-700 on a 1.5m span RTF electric warbird to save several hundred quid and produce a more robust, simpler, but still good looking model. That ought to have a backstop of experienced builders who will be able to participate as well, some of which are on this forum - the promotion of the idea really also ought to come in the magazine, as there are clearly many readers of the magazine who do not use the forum. Given the chosen subject matter I really think an 80th D-Day Anniversary would be an ideal time for such an event, though there might well be an issue with clashes with other D-Day events which enthusiasts might want to attend. That would give more than sufficient time to develop a mass build project and perhaps get two airframes in the air.

You are all correct in you comments . The newbies may come and join in , they may not . 

Leccy sums up what has been said nicely in the comments above  . 

We started off this thread pondering what it would take to increase the pool of builder/finishers , in order that there would be sufficient incentive for the British Kit designers and manufacturers to stay in the game . Because if they don't then our choices for the next subject will dwindle to nothing . 

As it morphed into a "fighting pair " being the suggested vehicles for this little push , we have arrived at a good and practical proposition , which will not be an epic design project for me but will still allow for a lot of experiment, deviation and enhancement from you. 

These models will look very cool when updated , but underneath , I know that they have superb flying qualities , so we can rely on them .

However, this time the focus will be on arriving at something that looks and flies superbly , but is relatively cheap overall and most importantly, needs very little skill to build and finish . All publicity is good , so if the build thread is well supported as was the Bf110 and Bf109 , then , without the giant hurdles of retracts and scale details , we might find that a few more "wall flowers" will realise that it is well withing their reach . 

That is the Key , not pretending to be a "Clever Dickie" , more a case of , if I can do this , so can you .

There will of course be humour along the way . The Lads (Graham and Sweep ) will be doing most of the show and tell including the painting (God help us ) .

As I sense the enthusiasm , I will push to get them sorted before Christmas . 

[Learner]

I've been following the thread with interest.

Although I like to see a nice scale warbird flying I have no interest in builidng one.

There are Forty members in my main club, the only 2 models built in the last 4 yrs in the club have been built by me. The ones that used to build dont bother anymore they are happy with foamies, some even find fitting wings a chore so buy planes that go in the car whole.

I dont think a "mass" build and the prospect of a 3hr trip to Buckminster to fly is going to change their minds!

I doubt if mine is the only club like this, so good luck with your project. I know its not the aim but think selling them built and just bind to fly for £500 you would get more takers!