Scale flying, what's right and what's wrong

[Chris Walby]

I have a collection that ranges from a DR1, DH Mosquito, Yak55 to a foam T33 so its a general question of "what is scale flying?" I am not interested in what the model can possibly do it the hands of a maestro, but more what the full size is capable of so I can replicate it with the model?

 

Is there a relatively easy why easy way of finding out what a particular aircraft is capable of doing be it a WW1, WW2 or modern era?

 

Example Yak 55 with +9/-6G, roll rate of 345 degrees per second and climb rate of 3,000 ft/min puts it at one extreme, but what can/can't a DR1, Mosquito or T33 do? Loops yes? Bunts? Rolls or are they barrel rolls etc

 

Is there something like full size aircraft pilot notes that specify what an aircraft is capable of?

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

3 minutes ago, Chris Walby said:

I have a collection that ranges from a DR1, DH Mosquito, Yak55 to a foam T33 so its a general question of "what is scale flying?" I am not interested in what the model can possibly do it the hands of a maestro, but more what the full size is capable of so I can replicate it with the model?

 

Is there a relatively easy why easy way of finding out what a particular aircraft is capable of doing be it a WW1, WW2 or modern era?

 

Example Yak 55 with +9/-6G, roll rate of 345 degrees per second and climb rate of 3,000 ft/min puts it at one extreme, but what can/can't a DR1, Mosquito or T33 do? Loops yes? Bunts? Rolls or are they barrel rolls etc

 

Is there something like full size aircraft pilot notes that specify what an aircraft is capable of?

I would make contact with the experts, perhaps go along to a scale event and chat to the judges and competitors.

https://scale.bmfa.org/committee

Edited August 30, 2023 by Andy Symons - BMFA

[Ron Gray]

Mostly through reading pilot's memoirs and vids if they exist (YouTube). 

[Chris Walby]

Ron, the problem with vids and even airshows are that they can differ radically. One air show had a Spitfire do a limp barrel roll as the center piece (rest of the air show was nice), but those that hung on to the end were treated to a Hurricane that was really put through its paces. It included all the usual like loops and rolls plus other things at some very spectacular low altitudes (it really made the show for me). I appreciate some of the limitations are of the aircraft and/or the pilot (position from flight line and altitude). 

 

Andy, thanks for the link, but where do they get their information from?  

[Ron Gray]

2 minutes ago, Chris Walby said:

the problem with vids and even airshows are that they can differ radically

That's why you have to look at lots of them to see what the planes can do, bearing in mind that there are limitations imposed on some of the historical ones! But with model flying, 9 times out of 10 they are flown way too fast with excessive roll rates, too tight turns, too small loops, excessive inverted flight and that's just the WWII types! Don't get me started on WWI planes!

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

9 minutes ago, Chris Walby said:

Andy, thanks for the link, but where do they get their information from?  

No idea to be honest, thats why I would suggest contacting them.

[RottenRow]

Why not pay a visit to Buckminster between the 6th and 10th of September, when the UK Scale Nationals, combined with the Scale Euro Masters, will be taking place.

 

There you will be able to speak with the entrants who will be able to answer your queries.

 

Brian.

[J D 8]

 I was at an airforce open day display some years ago where the Rolls Royce Mosquito was displaying. Just by luck happened to be standing next to a former WW2 Mosquito pilot. As we watched he said to no one in particular.

Silly stewards,carry on flying lt like that and the bleeps will kill themselves ln a bleeping hole in the ground.

His words were far more colourfull than this forum allows.

A few years later that is just happened.

So it is not just models that are flown in non scale ways.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Good question, I guess it depends on who you ask, a topic that's likely to ruffle feathers. For me a WW11 Bomber, that'll be levelish flight there and back unless evasive manouvres are required within airframe engines limitations, WW11 fighter, scrambled in emergency it's all you've got, then wring it's neck trying to be the one not shot down, on escort duty, sedatish flying saving fuel unless enemy appears, then wring it's neck again. The wring it's neck doesn't sit well with some, but the actual pilots trying to stay alive most certainly did it. But always in a scale like manner. 😉

[Geoff S]

i was lucky enough to be on the RR Hucknall airfield on a Friday afternoon back in 1997 when Andy Sephton brought the RR Spitfire in for an open day the following weekend. Before landing he did an aerobatic display, it seemed just for me.  I was so used to watching models the slow speed of the full-size was marked. It seemed the rolls were at such low speeds the aircraft would fall out of the sky.  I think that applies to most scale model flight - they all fly too fast because air density and gravity remain at full size but the model doesn't.  It's even more marked with model boats - the water shows up the scaling error even more.

 

It's fairly easy to check the maximum and cruising speeds of the full-size so it's simple to apply it to a model.  eg my 58" ws Gypsy Moth's should fly at approx a 1/6 of 100 mph which isn't really possible.  You just have to do the best you can.

[Chris Walby]

9 hours ago, RottenRow said:

Why not pay a visit to Buckminster between the 6th and 10th of September, when the UK Scale Nationals, combined with the Scale Euro Masters, will be taking place.

 

There you will be able to speak with the entrants who will be able to answer your queries.

 

Brian.

Thanks all and especially Brian, I pop in to Buckminster on my way back from Norfolk (more like a 2 hour diversion in reality) as its a clear weekend from other events. Stay over one night in the camper van and enjoy the proceedings, great result!

Cheers

[leccyflyer]

11 hours ago, Chris Walby said:

I have a collection that ranges from a DR1, DH Mosquito, Yak55 to a foam T33 so its a general question of "what is scale flying?" I am not interested in what the model can possibly do it the hands of a maestro, but more what the full size is capable of so I can replicate it with the model?

 

Is there a relatively easy why easy way of finding out what a particular aircraft is capable of doing be it a WW1, WW2 or modern era?

 

Example Yak 55 with +9/-6G, roll rate of 345 degrees per second and climb rate of 3,000 ft/min puts it at one extreme, but what can/can't a DR1, Mosquito or T33 do? Loops yes? Bunts? Rolls or are they barrel rolls etc

 

Is there something like full size aircraft pilot notes that specify what an aircraft is capable of?

Pilot's notes are available for many types operated by the RAF and they make for very interesting reading. As others have said, written accounts and videos of contemporary flying and airshows of old are valuable as well. After watching lots of those, you get a sense for how aeroplanes move naturally in their environment and that is why totally out of scale manoeuvres can "jar" when compared to that internal imagery that we enthusiasts carry regarding how an aeroplane should look when it's flying. It's part of what makes so much CGI so unsatisfying and, frankly, annoying is so many films - an example being the P40's flying between the hangars* in Pearl Harbor, which looked more like Pod Racers from Star Wars. Unwatchable.

 

As regards scale speeds, our models invariably have to fly much faster than the real thing and the smaller the model the bigger the disparity, unfortunately that's a fact of life, but the least we can do is to not produce ridiculous manoeuvres - like the Fly Baby or was it a Corben Baby Ace which was featured prop hanging recently - that's just daft.

 

 

* Yes I know that real aeroplanes have flown between hangars when being wrung out, but not like that!

[Ron Gray]

11 hours ago, Chris Walby said:

on my way back from Norfolk

Shipdham?

Edited August 31, 2023 by Ron Gray

[Jon H]

At my old club we had a short stirling flight engineer give us a chat once. He was telling us about how the engineer had no seat, just a 3 legged wooden stool to sit on. on one occasion he was trundling back from a mission when the rear gunner screamed 'BANDIT! corkscrew left!!'. The next thing he knew he was looking at the 3 legged wooden stool he was once sat on as it floated past his face, and a moment later his head hit the canopy. No sooner had this happened he was back on the floor an unable to get up. He then explained that a corkscrew is a big forward shove on the controls with left/right aileron applied, and then a sharp pull up with opposite turn applied to hopefully cause the enemy fighter to whizz by. Apparently the Stirling was excellent at this as it had a high wing loading. Halifax and Lancaster bombers did the same if attacked when out of formation so the BBMF's style is not exactly showing the full potential of the aircraft. Equally, inverted passes just look daft with a WWII bomber and i would rather the BBMF take it easy given they arent actually being attacked by a night fighter. 

 

In the case of a WWII fighter i work on the basis that negative G and inverted flight is out, as are spins and other violent manoeuvers. The biggest killer for scale in my experience is speed. Seeing a tiger moth or sopwith pup at warp speed just looks ridiculous. I saw the prop hanging flybaby video and just clicked off it. IF you want to prophang, by a 3d model. The flybaby in question was a lovely model, but it was over powered and to me just looked silly. I know it takes all sorts, but that wasnt for me.  

[J D 8]

           A relative who flew in Stirling's on low level sea mine dropping said the Stirling's ability to out turn JU88's trying to intercept saved them a couple of times.

[Simon Chaddock]

Speed os the biggest factor for scale flying.

As stated the density and viscosity of air work against you so weight becomes an important issue.

If you go big and 'silly' light you can get quite close to a realistic flying speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY1IkLImlHI&t=94s

But you also need a scale wind speed which is less than 5 kts! 

[Geoff S]

3 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

At my old club we had a short stirling flight engineer give us a chat once. He was telling us about how the engineer had no seat, just a 3 legged wooden stool to sit on. on one occasion he was trundling back from a mission when the rear gunner screamed 'BANDIT! corkscrew left!!'. The next thing he knew he was looking at the 3 legged wooden stool he was once sat on as it floated past his face, and a moment later his head hit the canopy. No sooner had this happened he was back on the floor an unable to get up. He then explained that a corkscrew is a big forward shove on the controls with left/right aileron applied, and then a sharp pull up with opposite turn applied to hopefully cause the enemy fighter to whizz by. Apparently the Stirling was excellent at this as it had a high wing loading. Halifax and Lancaster bombers did the same if attacked when out of formation so the BBMF's style is not exactly showing the full potential of the aircraft. Equally, inverted passes just look daft with a WWII bomber and i would rather the BBMF take it easy given they arent actually being attacked by a night fighter. 

 

In the case of a WWII fighter i work on the basis that negative G and inverted flight is out, as are spins and other violent manoeuvers. The biggest killer for scale in my experience is speed. Seeing a tiger moth or sopwith pup at warp speed just looks ridiculous. I saw the prop hanging flybaby video and just clicked off it. IF you want to prophang, by a 3d model. The flybaby in question was a lovely model, but it was over powered and to me just looked silly. I know it takes all sorts, but that wasnt for me.  

 

I once saw Ian Redshaw prop hang a very over-powered quarter scale Sopwith Pup I think he'd done some work on for someone.  It was just a momentary act of madness on his part as he normally flies WW1 biplanes in a very scale manner but it did look odd and it was in the privacy of our flying field one evening 🙂

[John Stainforth]

On 30/08/2023 at 15:35, Chris Walby said:

I have a collection that ranges from a DR1, DH Mosquito, Yak55 to a foam T33 so its a general question of "what is scale flying?" I am not interested in what the model can possibly do it the hands of a maestro, but more what the full size is capable of so I can replicate it with the model?

 

Is there a relatively easy why easy way of finding out what a particular aircraft is capable of doing be it a WW1, WW2 or modern era?

 

Example Yak 55 with +9/-6G, roll rate of 345 degrees per second and climb rate of 3,000 ft/min puts it at one extreme, but what can/can't a DR1, Mosquito or T33 do? Loops yes? Bunts? Rolls or are they barrel rolls etc

 

Is there something like full size aircraft pilot notes that specify what an aircraft is capable of?

Robert Stanford Tuck and George Stainforth wrote comparative notes on the flying performance of the Spitfire vs the ME109.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

20 hours ago, Geoff S said:

 

I once saw Ian Redshaw prop hang a very over-powered quarter scale Sopwith Pup I think he'd done some work on for someone.  It was just a momentary act of madness on his part as he normally flies WW1 biplanes in a very scale manner but it did look odd and it was in the privacy of our flying field one evening 🙂

Maybe trying to emulate the tactic employed by Fokker D VII pilots who could prop hang (briefly) spraying fire underneath allied aircraft.  I understand they would eventually fall out of it but were easily recoverable unlike most other types of the era. 

[GrumpyGnome]

That's just a stall turn..... maybe without the turn 🙂

 

Doubt any WW1 aircraft had at, or above, the 1:1 power/weight ration needed for prop hanging.

[Simon Chaddock]

The DVIII did not need a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio but could approach the opponent in a steep climb where its docile stall characteristics allowed the pilot to confidently hold this attutude longer than any allied fighter.

From Wikipedia. 

"The D.VII was also noted for its high manoeuvrability and ability to climb, its remarkably docile stall and reluctance to spin. It could "hang on its prop" without stalling for brief periods of time, spraying enemy aircraft from below with machine gun fire. These handling characteristics contrasted with contemporary scouts such as the Camel and SPAD, which stalled sharply and spun vigorously."

[Ron Gray]

Yup, stall turn!

[PatMc]

If the Fokker is hovering below an aircraft flying at, say 90mph (132fps), it wont be "spraying" it with many bullets. 😏

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

But if it’s at say 20 - 30 knots the spread of bullets would probably hit the engine, fuel tank and pilot as it was passing overhead without any return fire to worry about and disturb the aim.  Firing at a high AoA well above the normal stall angle would give bullets more chance of hitting something vulnerable too. 

[Ron Gray]

I’d be quite happy to see a model DVII go into a vertical / steep climb, slow down, hesitate then either complete a stall turn or wing over. I wouldn’t like to see it prop hang for a more than couple of seconds at the top of the climb!