Electric Cars.

[Frank Skilbeck]

6 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

I'm sure an IC car with a fuel leak could catch fire when parked and there's bound to be examples on YouTube.

 

 

 

You don't need to go on YouTube there have been several safety recalls for different ICE cars catching fire, sometimes when parked.

[Zflyer]

The right wing press, the tories and cl8mstr change. Stock answer to any problem.

If you want an electric car get one. If not dont. Pros and cons to everything. But this thread as with certain others wonders off into naa na naa from either side. When you all sit together and discuss it as adults with true facts and figures, stats analysed in honest fashion with at least an smidgen of open minds that would be grand. Until then i will leave you all in the playground. And you can collect your own toys from under your prams...

[Tim Kearsley]

Bye bye.

[Piers Bowlan]

9 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

It's odd, and I've noticed this with lots of things, there seems to be a large body of people who have decided they don't like the whole idea of electric vehicles and so go to a lot of effort to find problems and counter any positive viewpoint with, often baseless, negative arguments.  As idd said, there is a huge section of the right-wing press which go to great lengths to publicise the negative aspects of EV ownership as well as the mega-powerful fossil fuel industry.

However, the momentum is there, and the move to electric-powered cars is unstoppable. IC vehicles will become more and more expensive to run.  Don't be fooled by the government's apparent back-tracking - that's just a feeble attempt to try and get the public on-side before the next election.  They'll be gone in a year. 

‘They’ll be gone in a year’ a week is a long time in politics! 🤣

Edited September 30, 2023 by Piers Bowlan

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The thread is dangerously close to straying into party politics.  Let’s make sure we keep within the forum guidelines. 

[Trevor]

Okay, to drag us back to the nitty gritty. I've been looking for an EV that can match my lovely Kia Sorento for model carrying capability and navigating the occasionally rutted track up to the slopes. Ironically the first real candidate I've come across is another Kia offering, the EV9. I was wondering whether anyone else was looking at this and, if so, have you had any joy in getting an estimated date from your dealer for a test drive?

 

Trevor

 

P.S. I already know it's big. And I already know it's expensive, so can we skip that bit please 🙂

[Ron Gray]

Very similar to the EV9 is the Hyundai Ioniq 7 which is due out next year and personally I would wait to compare the 2. From what my local Hyundai dealer said they hope to start getting them in spring but local Kia dealer hoping for sooner although no dates given for testing. That was a few weeks ago when I was looking fur my EV. 

[FlyinFlynn]

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs

 

 

So what are our EV driving forumites finding?

[Cuban8]

An ex-BBC journalist, Lawyer (not sure if he ever practised though) and now best selling author is not exactly on my worry list for folks trying to pay their bills whether car insurance or anything else.  However, I do have a sneaking feeling that insurance companies may well be making hay from EVs while they can. They have at the moment a small, captive and comparatively wealthy market of drivers with new and expensive vehicles to tap - it would be surprising if they missed the opportunity.

BTW I draw your attention to my very first posting that started this thread back in January 2018......I don't believe we've answered the main issue that I raised back then.

Our household insurance costs for 2023 - vehicles and home insurance actually came down this year by about 5% in total compared to 2022. Just saying.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Cuban8

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

1 hour ago, FlyinFlynn said:

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs

 

 

So what are our EV driving forumites finding?

Yes - massive hike.  Mine seems to be coming in about 15% higher than my last renewal according to a comparison site.  
 

Oh wait - so is the premium for my wife’s little petrol engined car…

[Ron Gray]

My Ioniq 5 costs me £30 more than my Toyota Corolla Sports Touring. No complaints from me. 

[Tim Kearsley]

The insurance on my Tesla Model 3 Performance went up to just over £600 in September, from £340 the previous year.  I got the impression that insurance was shooting up for all cars though, not just electric ones. 

[Learner]

Theres no logic to insurance I've recently had two quotes, one wanted £200 more to add my partner who has a clean record for 40 yrs, the other reduced it by £220 to add her. 

Yet the final figure ended up within £20 of each other.

Its all a big con!!

 

[MattyB]

Switching from a 2013 Passat diesel to a 2016 PHEV Passat in August cost me £25 for an additional 3 months, but the car is worth 4x what the old one was so that feels pretty reasonable - doesn’t sound like the battery is baking in much extra cost in this instance. I guess I will find out for certain at renewal time in Dec…

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I believe that some of the anomalies can be explained by the way underwriters spread risk.  They decide on quotas of various risk types for a period to balance risk and income and when one is filled ( it could be very low risk as easily as any other) simply quote unrealistic premiums to deter business without hurting customers’ insurance records by refusing cover. 

[Erfolg]

To me it is interesting in that the reality of EV when compared to reality is often very different. Many EV adherents, often are dismissive of any who have reservations, often dismissing opposing or reserved positions as being uniformed.

 

Today I have read that "John Lewis" are ceasing offering EV insurance, a number of reasons are proffered. Other reports is that the insurance is typically double similar IC vehicles. Apparently a collision of a EV vehicle results in a right off, that working on them requires some at present onerous requirements.

 

I have read a few reports that tyre particulate is far higher with EVs than IC vehicles. A number of reasons are typically proffered. That the weight of the typical EV vehicle is higher than an IC vehicle, which increases wear in cornering, braking, and accelerating. Apparently EV tyres have less tread to reduce unsprung weight, does not seem that logical to me, but it will increase tyre sales.

 

Apparently EV servicing is not as low as predicted, with a trend towards higher costing as experience has been gathered.

 

That even today their are issues with the ability to both generate the necessary energy, at peak times, with difficulties with the interconnectors suppling some locations, such as motorway service stations. Some bodies are urging higher domestic standing charges, to pay for grid updates.    Green generating costs are still higher than precovid costings, for a variety of reasons, still not matching the Coal costs. There appears to be a host of smoke and mirrors hiding that carbon emission charges and other additional costs hide the true cost of Green power, when compared to other means. I dread to think what the impact of high speed trains will have, typically using 10Mw, to run at about 200 mph.

 

I think there is a lot of work, cost needed to implement a dream Green World, which I suspect will have many unexpected consequences. Pity that Germany and China seem to be increasing their Carbon footprint, at this time.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Erfolg

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

As a point of interest, what are the costs of servicing and Mot tests on ev's ?.

[Tim Kearsley]

2 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

As a point of interest, what are the costs of servicing and Mot tests on ev's ?.

I can only answer in respect of the Tesla.  There's no recommended servicing, but obviously brakes, air-con, pollen filters need occasional maintenance.  I've owned mine for three years from new.  Earlier this year I had the cabin filters replaced, brake fluid checked and brakes checked, done by a Tesla mobile "ranger".  Cost was £69.  MOT was done last month, no remedial work needed,  and cost £45.  Still on the original tyres.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

17 minutes ago, Tim Kearsley said:

I can only answer in respect of the Tesla.  There's no recommended servicing, but obviously brakes, air-con, pollen filters need occasional maintenance.  I've owned mine for three years from new.  Earlier this year I had the cabin filters replaced, brake fluid checked and brakes checked, done by a Tesla mobile "ranger".  Cost was £69.  MOT was done last month, no remedial work needed,  and cost £45.  Still on the original tyres.

Can you give me a bit more precision, age of car, mileage etc.

 

It certainly sounds cheap in the UK, mot here for a petrol car, 86€, second service on my diesel 308 automatic at 56.000 klm 416€and 4 years old, all filters and brake liquid and oil changed, tyres still new at rear and nearly finished on the front.

[Tim Kearsley]

Yes Paul, car was new when I bought it September, 2020.  Mileage is low at just over 14,000 miles (partly due to Covid).  Tesla are a bit peculiar in that they say that no routine servicing is required.  The filter replacement and brake check just seems common sense.  The problem with brakes is that, due to the regenerative braking, which is quite powerful on the Tesla, you don't use the brakes much and so they suffer from surface corrosion on the discs.  I make a point now of deliberately using the brakes occasionally just to try and keep the surfaces reasonable.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Tim Kearsley

[John Lee]

I renewed my car insurance last week, they are both on a multi-car policy. Kia Soul EV increased by 62%, MX-5 by 67%, no change to my circumstances other than I'm a year older.

 

The Kia was also serviced last week, I got the first 3 years services thrown in for free when I negotiated the purchase of the car, its MOT was £45. I was offered the next 2 services for a combined cost of £269.

[FlyinFlynn]

5 hours ago, Erfolg said:

To me it is interesting in that the reality of EV when compared to reality is often very different. Many EV adherents, often are dismissive of any who have reservations, often dismissing opposing or reserved positions as being uniformed.

 

Today I have read that "John Lewis" are ceasing offering EV insurance, a number of reasons are proffered. Other reports is that the insurance is typically double similar IC vehicles. Apparently a collision of a EV vehicle results in a right off, that working on them requires some at present onerous requirements.

 

I have read a few reports that tyre particulate is far higher with EVs than IC vehicles. A number of reasons are typically proffered. That the weight of the typical EV vehicle is higher than an IC vehicle, which increases wear in cornering, braking, and accelerating. Apparently EV tyres have less tread to reduce unsprung weight, does not seem that logical to me, but it will increase tyre sales.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These points were made in the Guardian news article I linked, the problem with 'John Lewis' is apparently their underwriter  is undertaking a review on EV repair costs and have stopped all EV policies at the moment while they gauge their liability, that doesn't mean it is permanent, just a review.

 

EV's are typically heavier than their ICE counterpart so, if the brakes are used, it stands to reason the particulate emissions will be greater, however, regenerative braking will work against that but it depends on driving style, I often used to follow drivers who were either on the throttle or on the brakes with nothing in-between, that won't really allow regen to work.

 

As to EV's having less tread......doesn't sound plausible to me...I had a browse around and came across the Kwik-fit site...where they claim - 

 

A normal car battery typically weighs in at around 18kg, while the average electric car battery is around 454kg - a whole 25 times heavier! That’s a whole lot of extra strain on your car’s tyres, which is why electric and hybrid tyres are a lot heavier too to ensure they can take the weight.

 

Totally ignoring the fact that the ICE car with an 18kg battery also has a lump under the bonnet....doh!

 

They do claim the tyres are different though with EV tyres having a higher load factor, which does make sense, but at what extra cost?

[MattyB]

5 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said:

EV's are typically heavier than their ICE counterpart so, if the brakes are used, it stands to reason the particulate emissions will be greater, however, regenerative braking will work against that but it depends on driving style, I often used to follow drivers who were either on the throttle or on the brakes with nothing in-between, that won't really allow regen to work.

Literally nobody I know with an EV or hybrid with regen drives like that. Once you have one and realise how effective the regenerative braking is, people start to drive differently as using it well in urban driving and stop start traffic conditions can give big results. Around town based on some basic tests I reckon the regen is worth about 0.4 miles per kWh, or just over 10% (my car is a PHEV so is obviously not as efficient in full electric mode as the best pure EVs).
 

The biggest problem most EV and hybrid drivers have is keeping their brakes from seizing due to lack of use; I am consciously doing a couple of hard braking events each week now in the Passat to keep the pads and discs in good condition, as they are barely ever touched in normal driving. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by MattyB

[Ron Gray]

Being a new EV owner regen braking has meant having to slightly adjust my driving style but, like Tim, I now hardly use the brakes, it’s brilliant. Not too sure about iPedal though.

[FlyinFlynn]

1 minute ago, MattyB said:

Literally nobody I know with an EV stoves like that. Once you have one and realise how effective the regenerative braking is, people do start to drive differently as using it well in urban driving and stop start traffic conditions can give big results. The biggest problem most EV and hybrid drivers have is keeping their brakes from seizing due to lack of use; I am consciously doing a couple of hard braking events each week now in the Passat PHEV to keep the pads and discs in good condition, as they are barely ever touched in normal driving. 

It's a brave new world!.... Are you saying no one will ever drive like that after driving an EV?     I'm sure not everyone will take this on board and continue to drive in that manner.  As you slow down regen must surely become less effective, do you never apply your brakes to come to a complete stop?