Transitioning to a low carbon life

[MattyB]

26 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Buying two new cars, which needed manufacturing and transporting etc, will cut emissions? Electric and hybrid cars are particularly filthy to manufacture when it comes to carbon due to the batteries, and keeping the older cars running would have been 'greener'. That said, if the old cars are at the end of their life it makes sense to do what you have done. Local pollution in your town/city will be reduced and improve overall air quality locally. Its not likely to do much for the climate though unfortunately as there are far bigger fish to fry there. 

 

To be clear, i am not trying to poo poo what you are doing. Its just that you save all of the carbon emitted during the manufacture of a product you don't buy and they don't build. So keeping an existing car going until its end of life is better for the planet as a whole. 

 

I have not and will never buy a new car! The "new" Passat is a 2017 model, and the car that replaces the Jazz will be a 50k+ miles EV of a similar vintage. Also the manufacture of batteries is no longer as damaging as it once was, and continues to improve all the time - many EV packs now  containing no cobalt or other difficult and harmful to mine rare earth metals. Recycling and "second-lifing" of EV batteries is also becoming far more extensive, so these things won't just go into landfill when they can't be used in the car any more.  It's also important to point out that petrol and diesel cars require quite a lot of cobalt to refine the fuel that goes into them throughout their life, so choosing a petrol car doesn't mean that cobalt mining is avoided either.

 

26 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

With your plug in i would recommend it lives outside or in a detached garage, just in case it decides to catch fire you do not want it in a garage connected to your house. Its certainly very unlikely to be a problem, but given the magnitude of the disaster should it go wrong i would leave it on the drive. 

 

We don't have a garage, so even if I was worried about this it wouldn't be a problem, but I'm really not as on the hybrid the AC charge rates are very slow (only about 1/3C), and it won't DC fast charge at all. You are right that once an EV starts to burn it is a major problem in comparison to ICE, but the evidence at the moment seems to suggest pure EVs are significantly less likely to catch on fire than an ICE car in the first place (though hybrids are apparently the most likely - damn!). More data is needed to confirm that for certain though as EVs become more common.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by MattyB

[Learner]

5 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

I have not and will never buy a new car! The "new" Passat is a 2017 model, and the car that replaces the Jazz will be a 50k+ miles EV of a similar vintage. Also the manufacture of batteries is no longer as damaging as it once was, and continues to improve all the time - many EV packs now  containing no cobalt or other difficult and harmful to mine rare earth metals. Recycling and "second-lifing" of EV batteries is also becoming far more extensive, so these things won't just go into landfill when they can't be used in the car any more.  It's also important to point out that petrol and diesel cars require quite a lot of cobalt to refine the fuel that goes into them throughout their life, so choosing a petrol car doesn't mean that cobalt mining is avoided either.

 

 

We don't have a garage, so even if I was worried about this it wouldn't be a problem, but I'm really not as on the hybrid AC charge rates are very slow (only about 1/3C). You are right that once an EV starts to burn it is a major problem in comparison to ICE, but the evidence at the moment seems to suggest it is far less likely to catch on fire than an ICE car in the first place. 

 

Useable lifespan from a battery was one of my concerns and as my car purchases are always long term, current being over 20 yrs.

I doubt if your new 6yr old passat was cheap, would you expect to get 10 more years out of the battery?

[Jon H]

19 minutes ago, MattyB said:

many EV packs now  containing no cobalt

 

Absolutely, cobalt is nasty stuff and if i ever see any ev/hybrid on fire i will be getting myself upwind asap. Polestar and Jaguar batteries still use cobalt as far as i am aware. I think Toyota hybrids are still NiMh! 

 

On the battery recycling, do we have a setup for that in the UK? I was watching a piece on this recently and it appeared we have no recycling or reuse infrastructure at all. Hopefully they can be recycled in some fashion. 

 

I am also not entirely convinced by the reporting in your link. They quoted ev fires vs total cars in the UK rather than against the number of EV's so that is a bit misleading. The last information i saw on it was it was about even between electric and ICE, but EV's were much more prone to catching fire when just sitting doing nothing and more vulnerable in the case of a crash. You can also put out a burning ICE car but not an EV. 

 

 

 

 

[MattyB]

31 minutes ago, Learner said:

Useable lifespan from a battery was one of my concerns and as my car purchases are always long term, current being over 20 yrs.

I doubt if your new 6yr old Passat was cheap, would you expect to get 10 more years out of the battery?

 

It was a lot cheaper (sub £20k) than a used pure BEV of a similar size, that I can assure you! Yes, I would expect to get 10 more years out of the pack on this car, though it's range will have diminished to between 70-80% of the range when the first owner purchased it. That wouldn't stop it being a usable vehicle for us though, it will just be slightly less economical.

 

I do understand your reticence to move to a BEV at this point given you keep your cars so long (we do too - my previous Passat had been with us 9 years, and the Jazz we've had 13). However, don't forget that may not be possible this time around. At some point the government will start to tax petrol and diesel more aggressively to get people out of ICE cars into pure BEVs, so even if you bought a new petrol today, it may not make sense to keep it as long this time (this is why battery degradation on the Passat doesn't worry me much, as I don't expect to be able to keep it more than 8 years). Such a move will also inevitably depress the values of second hand ICE cars too. I personally doubt this will happen until the late 2020s or early 2030s, but it will have to around then if we are to stick to the net zero pledges UK Gov has made.

 

PS - If you only do short trips and have a low total mileages these days, you could buy a used 3 year old Leaf for £10-14k with 5 years battery warranty and a real world range of 125 in all conditions. That is all the range and car most of us need for 98% of our journeys, though I accept it also isn't as inexpensive as a used petrol supermini either. You pays your money...

Edited August 30, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

22 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

On the battery recycling, do we have a setup for that in the UK? I was watching a piece on this recently and it appeared we have no recycling or reuse infrastructure at all. Hopefully they can be recycled in some fashion. 

 

I am also not entirely convinced by the reporting in your link. They quoted ev fires vs total cars in the UK rather than against the number of EV's so that is a bit misleading. The last information i saw on it was it was about even between electric and ICE, but EV's were much more prone to catching fire when just sitting doing nothing and more vulnerable in the case of a crash. You can also put out a burning ICE car but not an EV. 

 

No EV battery recycling facilities in the UK at present, but there is a lot of inertia behind this as it's clearly going to be a huge growth area...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/08/shock-and-ore-uk-firms-race-to-get-in-on-electric-car-battery-recycling-act

 

As to the fire data data, I share some of your concerns, but it is so early on in the overall transition that we won't know for certain for some time. Against that backdrop I am comfortable enough that, for the miles we do and the profile of driving, electric and hybrid vehicles are safe enough for us not postpone transitioning at this point given the benefits they will bring to us as a family. YMMV.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by MattyB

[Rich Griff]

I have read some where that a large disused factory is going to be a used ev battery bank/electricity storage facility...full of ex ev batteries deemed no longer viable for ev useage, but viable for electricity storage.

 

Hope to god that doesn't have a 🔥.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

When I Built my house 26 years ago, I got it built with extra insulation, low temperature heated floors and a double reversible air con, in 2018 20 solar panels which peak in summer at over 30 kwh, which has saved me £££, but NO way do I want an electric car !, I bought a Diesel 308sw 2 1/2 years ago and doing less than 5l /100 klm it's much cheaper than petrol and with my long haul driving an electric is of no use to me, not forgetting an electric of the same size would be at least another £20.000 to buy.

[MattyB]

4 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

When I built my house 26 years ago, I got it built with extra insulation, low temperature heated floors and a double reversible air con, in 2018 20 solar panels which peak in summer at over 30 kwh, which has saved me £££

 

I presume you mean 30kw peak power, not 30kwh (which would be a battery capacity)? Wow, 30kw is a lot... what do you use it all for? We have a 14 panel 5kw system which is too big for our current needs in terms of house consumption (though much of it excess will be mopped up by the car now). What led you to going so big? Do they have really good subsidies in France?

 

4 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

...NO way do I want an electric car! I bought a Diesel 308sw 2 1/2 years ago and doing less than 5l /100 km it's much cheaper than petrol and with my long haul driving an electric is of no use to me, not forgetting an electric of the same size would be at least another £20.000 to buy.

 

And that is absolutely understandable - an EV wouldn't work for you, but it does for us. The problem currently is that in the popular press and social media the EV zealots and total anti-EVers make all the noise, so there is no room for more pragmatic voices in the middle. Lots of people who have off-street parking and travel lowish mileages are still scared to go to an EV because of all the FUD out there about battery degradation etc., whilst others leap in without thinking about their patterns of use, issues with the charging network and/or without a place to charge at home, then wonder why it is harder than they thought it would be. 

 

PS - 5l/100km =56.5mpg over here... pretty similar to my old Passat diesel, but well shy of what my new hybrid is doing so far... 😉. It wouldn't manage >100 mpg on long range (>75 mile) trip though I admit!

 

[Rich Griff]

Our 2001 hdi pug estate 2l turbo does 63mpg on a long trip.

 

The lad wants to go electric as it makes sense on his 26 mile round trip commute to work. They are thinking very hard about this and contemplating changing the pitch direction of Thier south facing garden outbuilding roof, making 2 large roof areas for solar harvesting...possibly a third collector/car port roof area....we need a lottery win...

 

The church changed hands last year, 12 large solar panels ( room for another 12 at least ) and a new roof, south facing, in fact over 90 percent of the village roofs south facing, very few have solar panels.....

Edited August 30, 2023 by Rich Griff

[Nigel R]

3 hours ago, MattyB said:

if we are to stick to the net zero pledges UK Gov has made.

 

...mmm, yes, about those pledges, see, my MP friends and I have been doing some thinking, and...

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-07-30/sunak-set-to-stress-north-sea-energy-opportunities-in-scotland-visit

[MattyB]

28 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

...The lad wants to go electric as it makes sense on his 26 mile round trip commute to work. They are thinking very hard about this and contemplating changing the pitch direction of their south facing garden outbuilding roof, making 2 large roof areas for solar harvesting...possibly a third collector/car port roof area....we need a lottery win...

 

The church changed hands last year, 12 large solar panels ( room for another 12 at least ) and a new roof, south facing, in fact over 90 percent of the village roofs south facing, very few have solar panels.....

 

The big problem with solar is that even if you have a suitable house and the capital to do it, you also need to be at a point in your life when you know you will stay in that location long enough to reap the benefits. That means a comparatively small % of people are in a position to move forward at any given time, and that wont change without some substantial government  incentives being put in place.  A classic example is retired people in their late 60s or above  who own their own home - many of these boomers are interested in lowering their carbon and have capital available, but understandably don't want to invest in something that is unlikely to pay back in their lifetime. 

[Rich Griff]

Quiet so...

 

A government campaign needed, but that is never Gunnar happen, unless we turn communist.....or roofs are "nationalised"...

 

back to reality.....a lottery win.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

30kw is what my 20 panel 6kw system produces in a day, S/W orientation 30° the government at the time gave me a whopping 200€, and the EDF give me .10centimes the kwh and a small yearly 'bonus' my electric bill have gone down at least 1.000€ a year and the EDF have paid me back with the bonus so far 3.200€,  5/100 is mixed mileage long runs it goes down to 4.2l / 100,

[Don Fry]

You want a low carbon future, first step, reduce energy use. So tax SUVS, fast cars, to death. Welcome small horsepower carriers. Slower. Think updated Ford Anglia. 40 horse from memory. 
We seem to be waiting for the holy grail, free energy. That is also a big lie, keep going, the heat produced by free energy, and no one values what is free, has to be dissipate somewhere. 
Think about it. Like living in a bed sitter, windows closed in summer, and you leave the gas ring burning all night.
Tax energy use, no other known cure for a problem behaviour.

[MattyB]

3 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

30kw is what my 20 panel 6kw system produces in a day, S/W orientation 30° the government at the time gave me a whopping 200€, and the EDF give me .10centimes the kwh and a small yearly 'bonus' my electric bill have gone down at least 1.000€ a year and the EDF have paid me back with the bonus so far 3.200€.

OK, a 6kw system making 30kwh (not 30kw) a good day makes sense - our smaller system does slightly worse on a good day, but then we are a fair way further north. Incentives being essentially zero and the p/kw for export sounds low compared to here, even though ours dropped a long way from the famous FIT heydays. Even so, optimised battery/solar tariffs such as Octopus Flux will now give up to 32p/kWh if you make it available in the peak 4-7pm period. Pretty cool if you have a battery to play with…

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I don't think that the carbon war is going anywhere, just look at the planes in the sky, and the oil burning cargo ships, too little too late.

[GrumpyGnome]

Well, we can't have solar panels because of where we live, we're stuck with lpg/oil heating, can't have an ev vehicle as we have no way of charging it.

 

My only contribution is to run our petrol and diesel vehicles until they die............

[Ron Gray]

We had a solar assisted heat pump installed at the end of last year to heat the water then solar panels (12) in January. Despite the orientation of the panels not being optimal I am optimistic that our annual electric bill will be cut by 2/3rds and our oil bill by 1/3rd. We’ve also just (last Friday!) replaced our petrol hybrid car with a fully electric one (Ioniq 5)which is, so far, returning 4 miles / kWh. I’m now about to switch to Octopus Go, I did think about Intelligent Octopus but it hasn’t yet got the API to talk to my EV, so should be able to make use of the 9p/kWh low rate to either charge the EV or the solar batteries.

 

Having struggled with getting any form of communication with my previous electricity supplier, OVO and ditto Scottish Power (for my electric export) I’ve bound Octopus to be a breath of fresh air with email responses within a couple of hours.

[Brian Cooper]

[J D 8]

    Much the same as GG above for me. And now they say we will not be able to by a new oil boiler in a couple of years. The longest regular drive our car gets these days is when I go to the flying site  I would be happy to have a wind turbine on the farm but being in a National park snowball and hell come to mind.

[Frank Skilbeck]

25 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

We had a solar assisted heat pump installed at the end of last year to heat the water then solar panels (12) in January. Despite the orientation of the panels not being optimal I am optimistic that our annual electric bill will be cut by 2/3rds and our oil bill by 1/3rd. We’ve also just (last Friday!) replaced our petrol hybrid car with a fully electric one (Ioniq 5)which is, so far, returning 4 miles / kWh. I’m now about to switch to Octopus Go, I did think about Intelligent Octopus but it hasn’t yet got the API to talk to my EV, so should be able to make use of the 9p/kWh low rate to either charge the EV or the solar batteries.

 

Having struggled with getting any form of communication with my previous electricity supplier, OVO and ditto Scottish Power (for my electric export) I’ve bound Octopus to be a breath of fresh air with email responses within a couple of hours.

Ron re Octopus Intelligent have you checked if your wallbox will work with this then you don't need the car API.

 

Just replaced our 19yr old Colt with an 18 month old electric Mini, what a hoot to drive and insurance only went up slightly which was a big surprise. Hiccup fitting a wallbox as the Octopus fitter found we are on a looped supply and the main fuse support board had disintegrated, network company coming next week to repair.

 

As for battery recycling, apart from the 1st gen Leafs I understand battery failures are very rare, the main recycling is from accident rightoffs, but they end up in classic car conversions. BTW we talk about battery failure but it's not unkown for ICE engines to fail, friend had the DSG gearbox go faulty in his Fabia, he ended up replacing the car as repair/replacement was expensive. Anybody remember the issues a few years back with dual mass flywheels.

[Learner]

Our local council has the answer to the car debate.

They build thousands of flats with no parking spaces!

[Shaun Walsh]

Of course the best way to reduce your carbon footprint is to have no children. There are already 8 times as many people on the planet than can be sustainably supported in the long term if everyone was to have a European lifestyle.

[Learner]

9 minutes ago, Shaun Walsh said:

Of course the best way to reduce your carbon footprint is to have no children. There are already 8 times as many people on the planet than can be sustainably supported in the long term if everyone was to have a European lifestyle.

Too right all these oap protesters been pumping out kids,grand kids, great grandkids and now they want everyone else to spend a fortune to save the planet.

When all it needed was a pack of three.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Learner

[Brian Cooper]

11 minutes ago, Learner said:

Our local council has the answer to the car debate.

They build thousands of flats with no parking spaces!

There is a council development in my area like this.  

The truly amazing thing is the councilors keep a dead-straight face when confronted about it. 🤣

 

It is reassuring to know that politicians, from the highest to the lowest, continue to be totally out of touch with reality. 🤦‍♂️

 

Idiots, the lot of them.