A bit off topic... glow powered container ships

[Nigel R]

Not your average glow motor...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60433204

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Nigel R

[Jon H]

if you click express delivery do they add 30% nitro? 

[Engine Doctor]

If its anything like our big glow engines the ship will have bigger fuel tanks than cargo holds . If it was that good we would be driving in methanol powered cars but the fuel consumption brings their range  in line with electric cars . Only plus side is it only takes a few moments to refill .

[Chris Walby]

1 hour ago, Engine Doctor said:

If its anything like our big glow engines the ship will have bigger fuel tanks than cargo holds . If it was that good we would be driving in methanol powered cars but the fuel consumption brings their range  in line with electric cars . Only plus side is it only takes a few moments to refill .

 

Why is methanol car fuel consumption worse than petrol? Methanol engines run cooler, don't need such complex ancillaries and are thus lighter. With the same development budget as petrol it might have been a better choice...apart from the petrol companies pushing their products.

 

My understanding was that methanol is primarily used to produce more power (assuming the engine can handle it) so you can't compare even like for like engine sizes (cubic capacity). Just imagine what the old F1 turbo era cars could have produced on methanol! 

 

I say bring on methanol super-turbo charged car engines....way better sound than an electric ?

[John Lee]

35 minutes ago, Chris Walby said:

 

Why is methanol car fuel consumption worse than petrol?

 

From the UK Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy you can see that Bioethanol has about 60% of the energy content by weight of petroleum fuels. https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/calorific-values

 

[MattyB]

29 minutes ago, John Lee said:

 

From the UK Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy you can see that Bioethanol has about 60% of the energy content by weight of petroleum fuels. https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/calorific-values

 

 

...exactly, plus the fact it means anywhere you ar egrowing fuel you aren't growing crops for human consumption. I can't see how "grow your own" biofuels can ever be more than a minor novelty within our overall energy mix tbh.

[Jon H]

The stoichiometric ratio for petrol is 14.7:1 so you need nearly 15 units of air to burn one unit of fuel. For methanol the ratio is 6.5:1 

 

SO exactly as John says you need to burn more of it for the same power, but you can get more power as you can burn more of it for a given supply of air. I think nascar in the US is all methanol fuel and dragsters certainly use it. 

 

 

[kevin b]

Does this mean that when the Chinese start using Methanol engines glow fuel will be in short supply, like balsa ?

[PatMc]

Is there any point comparing these proposed engines with petrol engines ? I think ships that size invariably use 2 stroke diesel engines. 

[Jon H]

10 minutes ago, PatMc said:

Is there any point comparing these proposed engines with petrol engines ? I think ships that size invariably use 2 stroke diesel engines. 

 

My reply was to chris's comment regarding cars. But yes, ships tend to use 2 stroke heavy oil powered engines. 

[Don Fry]

Way out of my comfort zone, but considering the stuff they burn now is sulphur rich gloop, methanol from waste product sounds good. It’s a way of getting a small carbon fuel as a liquid at room temperature. The fuel tank is bigger than fuel oil, but on a new ship, not the end of the world. 
Note, from waste product, not driving some poor victim off his potato garden.

[Erfolg]

Yep, I fear a shortage of Methanol, at least in the short term.

 

The comment with respect to increased fuel consumption, appears to be spot on from reports. Is using methanol as environmentally as beneficial as suggested, is again debatable.

 

At present it appears that heat pumps is yet another issue. The claims with respect to the Carnot Cycle, appears to be at best contentious, as real heat pumps and refrigerators, do not comply with the cycle when examined, the differences in practice to the Adiabatic process (etc) and other aspects do not happen in reality. Just as the Sterling Cycle, great in theory. Just cannot be achieved in practice. Apparently today, gas boilers are circa 50% more efficient, than Heat Pumps (as a complete end to end cycle)

 

Who knows about tomorrow, will all the claims be achieved, or will many of us be on the breadline and freezing?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Terrible idea, you seen the price of glow plugs. ?

[Chris Walby]

37 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Terrible idea, you seen the price of glow plugs. ?

Never used a glow plug in my methanol burning Weslake, JAP, JAWA or GM in 20 years or the Suzuki or Bultaco for that matter. Its only the baby stuff that needs a glow plug.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 minute ago, Chris Walby said:

Never used a glow plug in my methanol burning Weslake, JAP, JAWA or GM in 20 years or the Suzuki or Bultaco for that matter. Its only the baby stuff that needs a glow plug.

 

Humour Chris.

[Simon Chaddock]

In reality all green methanol is doing is using renewable energy to create a hydrocarbon fuel but at what overall energy conversion efficiency?

These big ships are incredibly efficient per ton/mile so perhaps in the short(ish) term the best solution is to stop the wasteful use of hydrocarbon (IC cars, lorries and home heating) asap and use what we may burn in container ships.

At some point in the not too near future we will all have to get used to a much lower level of world trade and travel which will mean becoming much more self sufficient at using geographically local resources ecologically. ?

 

[Dad_flyer]

11 hours ago, Erfolg said:

Apparently today, gas boilers are circa 50% more efficient, than Heat Pumps (as a complete end to end cycle)

This must depend on the end-to-end situation.

 

A heat pump moves more heat energy than the electrical energy it consumes. It may not be as good as theoretically possible, but it is still more than the input. A gas boiler will give you very nearly all of the chemical energy stored as heat. A simple electric heater is basically 100% efficient at point of use.

The question is what do you assume about the source of the electricity and gas? 

 

If the electricity comes from gas fired power stations, then whichever system you use you are burning gas. There is a delicate calculation to be done of the generation and distribution losses with any heat pump gain. It may well come out negative.

 

If the electricity is from renewable sources it is still not 'free', but there is no direct link to gas or other fossil fuels and it is much easier to get overall benefit from a heat pump system.

 

Of course we are nowhere near 100% renewable on electricity, but all solutions require that as a starting point. We are moving much faster than I ever expected towards that.

[Frank Skilbeck]

11 hours ago, Erfolg said:

 Apparently today, gas boilers are circa 50% more efficient, than Heat Pumps (as a complete end to end cycle)

 

 

On what basis, heat pumps work by transferring heat (i.e. they cool the outside air and transfer the extracted heat inside), so on a direct heating comparison they provide more heating energy to energy consumed.

 

At the moment they are not as good at heating as a direct gas fired boiler as the output temperature is lower.

 

Anybody remember all the adverse press around LED lights when it was announced that incandescent bulbs were being phased out.

 

But getting back to methanol powered ships, methanol has just under 50% of the energy of heavy fuel oil (based on a energy per unit weight), so you need around twice as much for the same energy output, but emits less than 45% of the CO2 on a unit basis, so there will also be a slight reduction in CO2 emissions from the ship, assuming both engines work with the same efficiency.

 

BTW back in the 70s the University I was at was investigating running a marine diesel engine on coal dust.

[kevin b]

I hate the term "renewable energy". It implies that the same energy can be reused over and over again, which is totally untrue (at least not without substantial losses).

It is yet another device used by the media and politicians to cajole people of maybe lesser intelligence into believing that there is a cure for the cancer of humanity destroying the planet we currently are able to live on. There is only one answer to the question, but as a species we are not prepared to accept the consequences. Maybe having a higher intelligence level than other animals is not necessarily a good thing ?

 

Apart from that, life is wonderful and the only problem is insufficient good flying weather.  

[Geoff S]

1 hour ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

 

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Anybody remember all the adverse press around LED lights when it was announced that incandescent bulbs were being phased out.

 

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BTW back in the 70s the University I was at was investigating running a marine diesel engine on coal dust.

 

LEDs are (literally) brilliant (I have 4 in my workshop).  When I first used them all you could get were red ones. There were other colours available but they were a bit dim.  I was editing a cycle magazine back in the late 80s and was given a couple of LED rear lights to try and they made one of the best contributions to cycling since the Rover safety cycle was invented by Starley ?   No more looking over your shoulder to see if the Never Ready rear light was still working.

 

My wife was the station superintendent's secretary when the Radcliffe on Soar power station was commissioned in 1967/8.  It was powered by what was effectively coal dust used almost as a fluid. So it's not a totally novel concept though at the power station it was burning in a boiler rather than in an ICE.

[Erfolg]

Geof

 

Sounds like a "Fluidised Bed", using pulverised coal and compressed air. Perhaps one draw back, was some ash going up the chimney.

 

 

Hmmm

I am surprised that the heat pump, produces more energy. than it consumes, is that perpetual energy device? I do not think that Mr. Carnot predicts that, Does Entropy not happen with our heat pump? 

[Don Fry]

erf, entropy increases, so the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is satisfied. 
but the pump moves heat about, a bigger amount of low grade heat is moved, at the cost of loss of your nice electricity, note move, not make,  but from the user of large radiators, ie underfloor heating, all you care about is cheap toasty socks. 

[Erfolg]

Don

 

The second law indicates that heat cannot move from a colder point to a warmer point, without using energy. Therefore heat pumps have to use energy. To believe otherwise is nonsense, intuitively we know this, We do not need Carnot or Clausius. No snake oil salesman or environmentalist will convince me that black is white, however they may personally believe it

 

There is entropy (losses) with heat pumps, nothing comes for free.   Also very few (if any processes are completely reversible, in that all the atoms and molecules end up where they started from.

 

If the Carnot cycle was anywhere as a efficient when applied to fridges and heat pumps, I would be a happy bunny.

[Don Fry]

I am not getting into an argument. But it is possible to move, note move, not create, poor quality heat from a to b, and get some benefit from it, cheaper warm feet. It consumes energy to shift it. But the Joules you shift exceed the joules needed to shift it. It obeys the second Law, entropy increases in the 2 separate systems. 

This is an established technology. It does work. It is not magic. 

[kevin b]

I would like to quote somebody much more intelligent than I am regarding all this "science".

 

"There is no such thing as a free lunch".