Are 'recommended throws' really necessary?

[leccyflyer]

It's one of those irregular verbs

 

I use the approved , correct amount of expo, rates and mixes to optimise my flight operations.

You use the wrong amount of expo and rates, but you might conceivably be convinced to set them correctly, given time.

They are lazy cheats and should be drummed out of the Brownies.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I’m largely in agreement with Jon on flap and undercarriage trim compensation. In full size the circuit duration is far longer than for smaller scale models and the extended time available for adjusting for different flight configurations coupled with tactile feedback makes re-trimming accurately a much more practical exercise. 

[GrumpyGnome]

I fly for fun. Some of my clever OS helps me have more fun.  Who would I be cheating?

[Learner]

Anyone using all the switches on their transmitter deserves a medal they are certainly not cheating. 

I have played with rates, flight modes etc but have difficulty remembering switch positions in flight.

I have nearly lost 2 planes, 1 using throttle cut instead of retracts, luckily voice alert saved me.

1 coming out of a loop on wrong flight mode having to little throw.

So now although its probably wrong just use full travel and expo to soften.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Learner
Spelling

[Frank Skilbeck]

While we all have our own preferences, the benefit of a modern radio is we can tune the controls to our preference. I fly pinching the sticks and often test fly other club members models, for some of the thumb fliers what I find fine they find too sensitive so typically add a bit more expo.

 

At the end of the day what we are aiming for is harmonised controls that we feel comfortable with.

[leccyflyer]

57 minutes ago, Learner said:

Anyone using all the switches on their transmitter deserves a medal they are certainly not cheating. 

I have played with rates, flight modes etc but have difficulty remembering switch positions in flight.

I have nearly lost 2 planes, 1 using throttle cut instead of retracts, luckily voice alert saved me.

1 coming out of a loop on wrong flight mode having to little throw.

So now although its probably wrong just use full travel and expo to soften.

I got caught twice with hitting Throttle Cut instead of the retract switch - managed to work the switch following the voice alert the first time and continued the flight. Second time was with my Me163 and was only a few feet off the ground so just went straight down just off the field with no damage. I then changed the throttle cut switch to the right hand side of the TX and covered it with a piece of red heatshrink, so that it feels different. That should stop it being inadvertently operated in flight. It also frees up the first switch, should I ever decide I need to use flight modes.

[Jon H]

Peter and i have been chatting away behind the scenes and its been very interesting actually.

 

This lazy/cheating/skills business was discussed and although off the expo topic i used this example from many moons ago to clarify what i meant. 

 

Pre A cert but solo student with his tutor 40 is struggling to takeoff on a particularly nasty day. Choppy wind, long wet grass, nasty. Even though it was a trike the grass and wind combined to keep tipping the model over and stopping the engine. Our trainee was getting extremely frustrated and was going to go home. It was at this point another club member tried to takeoff for him and was met with the same issue. Proclaiming all was lost they attempted a hand launch, which almost ended in tears, but they got it in the air. I had already set up this model for him when he was having trouble landing (too nose heavy, too much rates, too much expo) so i then got involved and offered to teach him how to takeoff in those conditions as it looked quite possible to me. I was told it was impossible by the assembled throng and yet was successful at my first attempt. I then taught the technique i used to our student (took about 10 minutes) and he practiced it for a further 10 achieving complete proficiency and a big smile. Big thumbs up, nice work tutor 40 guy. 

 

So, cheating/laziness etc.

 

Hand launching the model 'solved' the problem as the model was now in the air. But they cheated as they didnt solve the actual problem of being unable to take off and just worked around it. Perhaps they were lazy? A hand launch is only a few seconds work vs time spent actually teaching? Perhaps they lacked the core skills themselves as they had always been shown how to cheat their way forward buy avoiding problems instead of solving them and never learnt themselves? In either case, the student didnt learn any new skills from this, and next time he is in a similar position he needs to ask someone to launch his model for him. By spending as little as 10 minutes with him he learnt something new and is a better pilot for it. He can carry this skill with him and, i hope, pass it on it time. 

 

This is the point of everything i post on here. Dont be a cheat and only treat the symptom, identify and treat the cause of the problem. With luck, a new core skill can be picked up along the way. A great example is on board glow. You need it to keep the thing running, why? Is the tuning right, is the fuel right, tank placement, plug...Which one? Just slapping a glow on kinda fixes it, but you shouldnt need it and there is a problem elsewhere to be sure. Fix that and you will find you save the expense of the unit, the model is lighter without the unit, fuel consumption will likely reduce, confidence in the model will increase. Fix the problem, dont treat the symptoms. 

 

To bring this on topic. As i have said before my issue with expo is that it is very often used as the first thing to adjust when it should in my view be the last. If the model is not well balanced you cant get the rates right, on elevator especially. if the rates are wrong its going to be twitchy at high speed, adding expo fixes the high speed but its still badly balanced and now soggy/lacks precise control when landing at slower speed. Its also tricky to harmonise the response of all of the controls and have the model handle really nicely. The skill to learn here is identifying the problem as the balance, and not just cheat by adding shed loads of expo to try and cover it up. Tuning a model in this way can take some time and its tempting to cheat, and just take the shortcut. But you will end up with better flying models if you dont. You may find after all that work that some expo is needed after all and if so then fine. I used it on my Hurricane and Stampe for that reason. But with the rest of the setup nice, only 10% was needed in both cases to suit my preferences. 

 

I hope this clarifies that when i say 'cheating' i mostly mean covering up an issue rather than dealing with the actual problem directly.  

 

 

 

 

[leccyflyer]

As I observed earlier, the terms used were most definitely pejorative and the tone and implications of those terms were judgemental. No amount of back tracking or attempting to redefine those clearly understood plain English language terms can change that. Different people choose to use rates, expo and other functions in whatever manner that they choose - this thread shows the wide variety of such applications employed by different flyers. There is no One and Only True Way. Opinions and applications differ and there is no "cheating" or "laziness" involved in those choices.

[Geoff S]

25 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

I got caught twice with hitting Throttle Cut instead of the retract switch - managed to work the switch following the voice alert the first time and continued the flight. Second time was with my Me163 and was only a few feet off the ground so just went straight down just off the field with no damage. I then changed the throttle cut switch to the right hand side of the TX and covered it with a piece of red heatshrink, so that it feels different. That should stop it being inadvertently operated in flight. It also frees up the first switch, should I ever decide I need to use flight modes.

 

To avoid inadvertent operation I've changed my throttle cut to the 6 position rotary switch on my Horus - turning a knob accidentally is far less likely than catching a toggle switch.

[Stuart Z]

I just think back to my full size gliding days. One had to learn windy days, cross winds etc., no expo to dial in, no rates.  

[leccyflyer]

5 minutes ago, Geoff S said:

 

To avoid inadvertent operation I've changed my throttle cut to the 6 position rotary switch on my Horus - turning a knob accidentally is far less likely than catching a toggle switch.

That's a great idea Geoff. 

[Dickw]

11 minutes ago, Geoff S said:

 

To avoid inadvertent operation I've changed my throttle cut to the 6 position rotary switch on my Horus - turning a knob accidentally is far less likely than catching a toggle switch.

Another idea is to use a locking toggle switch as I do. Something like this

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/toggle-switches/1648730

I am sure cheaper versions are available from other sources.

 

Dick

Edited February 27, 2023 by Dickw

[MattyB]

12 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

I fly for fun. Some of my clever OS helps me have more fun.  Who would I be cheating?

 

2 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

As I observed earlier, the terms used were most definitely pejorative and the tone and implications of those terms were judgemental. No amount of back tracking or attempting to redefine those clearly understood plain English language terms can change that. Different people choose to use rates, expo and other functions in whatever manner that they choose - this thread shows the wide variety of such applications employed by different flyers. There is no One and Only True Way. Opinions and applications differ and there is no "cheating" or "laziness" involved in those choices.

 

Indeed. It's baffling to me why words like "cheat" and "lazy" are being used to describe aspects of what is (for 98%+ of participants) a non-competitive pastime. How can they be lazy if they have gone to the trouble of researching, building/assembling their own model (even if they have not done every aspect 100% "correctly" from your viewpoint)? How can they be cheating when are no rules on how to set it up, and we all take different approaches to so many aspects of the hobby? Whilst I don't disagree that root causing a problem (be it with technical setup or flying skills) and addressing the root cause will be better in the long run, why call any alternative to your preferred approach  "cheating" or "lazy"? What does using those words accomplish other than putting newcomers off?

 

This sport needs all the friends it can get at this time, and that means encouraging participation in whatever form it takes. You may not agree that a SAFE equipped, all electric Cub or Apprentice is the best thing to learn on, or like the way their model is set up. However, that doesn't mean people who chose such a route should be labelled in an unkind manner, whether face to face or on a forum. As long as they are not endangering themselves or anyone else, accept their choices and offer your help if you think it is needed. Some will listen, others may not, but don't ram your views down their thoat ad infinitum or dismiss them as "cheats" just because they take a different approach. In the long run if traditional model flying is to survive it needs as many people as possible participating, so let's not be unwelcoming or unkind to those who just starting out - we were all beginners once.

 

[MattyB]

32 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

This lazy/cheating/skills business was discussed and although off the expo topic i used this example from many moons ago to clarify what i meant. 

 

Pre A cert but solo student with his tutor 40 is struggling to takeoff on a particularly nasty day. Choppy wind, long wet grass, nasty. Even though it was a trike the grass and wind combined to keep tipping the model over and stopping the engine. Our trainee was getting extremely frustrated and was going to go home. It was at this point another club member tried to takeoff for him and was met with the same issue. Proclaiming all was lost they attempted a hand launch, which almost ended in tears, but they got it in the air. I had already set up this model for him when he was having trouble landing (too nose heavy, too much rates, too much expo) so i then got involved and offered to teach him how to takeoff in those conditions as it looked quite possible to me. I was told it was impossible by the assembled throng and yet was successful at my first attempt. I then taught the technique i used to our student (took about 10 minutes) and he practiced it for a further 10 achieving complete proficiency and a big smile. Big thumbs up, nice work tutor 40 guy. 

 

So, cheating/laziness etc.

 

Hand launching the model 'solved' the problem as the model was now in the air. But they cheated as they didnt solve the actual problem of being unable to take off and just worked around it. Perhaps they were lazy? A hand launch is only a few seconds work vs time spent actually teaching? Perhaps they lacked the core skills themselves as they had always been shown how to cheat their way forward buy avoiding problems instead of solving them and never learnt themselves? In either case, the student didnt learn any new skills from this, and next time he is in a similar position he needs to ask someone to launch his model for him. By spending as little as 10 minutes with him he learnt something new and is a better pilot for it. He can carry this skill with him and, i hope, pass it on it time. 

 

A good story Jon, but a simple question from me.... At any point during this process, did you call the student or their tutor a "cheat" or "lazy" to their face? If not, why do so here, on this forum? 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

23 minutes ago, Geoff S said:

 

To avoid inadvertent operation I've changed my throttle cut to the 6 position rotary switch on my Horus - turning a knob accidentally is far less likely than catching a toggle switch.

 

12 minutes ago, Dickw said:

Another idea is to use a locking toggle switch as I do. Something like this

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/toggle-switches/1648730

I am sure cheaper versions are available from other sources.

 

Dick

 

Yep, both good ideas. Another method if you have one of the systems that use logic switches is to create an "unknockable" safety switch that requires a three position switch to go through a sequence of moves within a time period to arm or disarm:

 

 

I created a set of switches like this in OpenTX and uploaded them to the RCSettings site with instructions. I use them a lot for motor arming and gear, and they would be useful for petrol ignition too.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I use my TX to enhance performance and enjoyment in some areas, mostly that's rates and differential on some wings. In all the years I've flown only two models have been near perfect in knife edge a Kyosho Oxalys and Seagull Yak 54, dialing in some mix is pretty simple then I'm KE from horizon to horizon, has that increased my enjoyment ? No, because the TX did it, I no longer have the challenge or satisfaction when I get it right. I know the TX did it so what is the point ?

[Jason Channing]

55 minutes ago, Stuart Z said:

I just think back to my full size gliding days. One had to learn windy days, cross winds etc., no expo to dial in, no rates.  

Boeing  and Airbus use Expo and have done so for many years as there unpleasant to fly with out it. more noticeable on the 737 than 319/320. and is very noticeable on the Max compared to an 800.

 

[Tim Kearsley]

Use of the word "cheat" reminds me of an incident I had a year or two back.  I was riding an electric bike and passed a chap on his non-assisted bike.  As I went by he yelled out "Cheat!".  A mile or so further on I had stopped on a footbridge over a road for a drink from a water bottle and he caught up and stopped for a chat.  I questioned how I could be a "cheat" when I wasn't in a competition.  We had a laugh and both went on our way.  But it's a valid question in the context of this thread.  How can you cheat if you're not competing?

[Jon H]

11 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

A good story Jon, but  simple question from me.... At any point during this proicess, did you call the student or their tutor a "cheat" or "lazy"? If not, why do so here, on this forum? 

 

I never called the student lazy or a cheat as they didnt do anything wrong. He was just trying to takeoff but didnt know how. He was solo, so had no assigned instructor, just bystanders watching. There was then a choice to 'cheat', circumvent the problem and teach him nothing with a hand launch, or teach him something new. 

 

He was very happy to receive the help and i was happy to provide it. 

 

Did i run around screaming my club mates are cheats? No. What would be the point? Was i disappointed none of them asked how i was able to take off when they couldnt? yea. It was an opportunity lost for everyone. 

 

Both yourself and leccy seem to be offended by this cheating business and i am not exactly sure why. 

 

As i said to Peter, perhaps you all think i am here furiously typing in a fit of rage about about all this when i am absolutely not. There is also this view that there is no flexibility in what i say which, again, not true. 

 

Learning with a gyro does make it harder in the long run. Its just a fact. One mode on the apprentice means you can hold the sticks fully forward and left and it will just do a gentle left dive. How is that helpful? If you learn to drive a car which is automatic, and then transition to manual it takes longer to master both than starting with manual. You can still drive both at the end, it just took longer going the 'easy' route. In fact the RAF found this when they went to all jet training and skipped the piston engine entry level they initially started with. I think it was the Jet provost that came in and sped up the training as the students didnt have to learn twice going from piston provost to a jet. I think it was the JP, im sure someone else will know for sure. 

 

43 minutes ago, MattyB said:

Whilst I don't disagree that root causing a problem (be it with technical setup or flying skills) and addressing the root cause will be better in the long run, why call any alternative to your preferred approach  "cheating" or "lazy"? What does using those words accomplish other than putting newcomers off?

 

Ok perhaps there is a misunderstanding here as Peter and i discussed this as we have different approaches to arrive at the same goal, something i had not appreciated in the beginning. Having a different path to the same result is absolutely not a problem. My issue is having no procedure at all and just bandaging a problem with some invented solution which only deals with the symptoms. Given that i am well versed in my own path to said goal, and i know it works in my hands and the hands of others i will of course recommend it. If someone else has another method then fine, but i will always back my own method over theirs and vice versa as we both are confident in our own setup. it was only through the longer chat with peter behind the scenes it became apparent we had more things in common than not in the way we do things. this is not always apparent in a very short forum post. 

 

26 minutes ago, MattyB said:

so let's not be unwelcoming or unkind to those who just starting out - we were all beginners once.

 

This actually does put my back up as i go out of my way to help people be better at the hobby. Am i very direct with my recommendations? yea. Do i apologise for it? no. I am good at what i do and have seen how the changes i have recommended have helped people in the past. I know they work, i know it will give people more enjoyment and satisfaction from the hobby. The only reward i get is seeing someone improve. I am not looking for a medal, i just dont like seeing models crash or people be frustrated with the hobby when i know how to fix their issue. 

 

So no i am not unkind to those just starting out and in fact i have more issue with the 'that'll do' attitude of some more experienced flyers. 

 

19 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

I use my TX to enhance performance and enjoyment in some areas, mostly that's rates and differential on some wings. In all the years I've flown only two models have been near perfect in knife edge a Kyosho Oxalys and Seagull Yak 54, dialing in some mix is pretty simple then I'm KE from horizon to horizon, has that increased my enjoyment ? No, because the TX did it, I no longer have the challenge or satisfaction when I get it right. I know the TX did it so what is the point ?

 

This is also a really important part of why i say the things i do. If you dont achieve anything, where is the reward? Tutor40 guy was beaming after he mastered his choppy takeoffs. having been told the conditions were impossible he found out they werent, and then found he could do it himself once he knew how. 

 

I have been learning guitar for years. I am not very good, music does not come naturally to me and its been a struggle. But, though some support and encouragement (and drink) i was able to play one song at the open mic night at the pub last week. I have been going for about 6 months, but never played before. It was terrifying, but i do feel i have achieved something and am happy about that. Just not sure if an encore is on the cards! 

 

13 minutes ago, Jason Channing said:

Boeing  and Airbus use Expo and have done so for many years as there unpleasant to fly with out it. more noticeable on the 737 than 319/320. and is very noticeable on the Max compared to an 800.

 

 

Dont wanna spill the GnT's in the back 😉 Also dont large aircraft suffer more from PIO in roll due to their mass? Perhaps this is to help damp it out 🤔

 

4 minutes ago, Tim Kearsley said:

Use of the word "cheat" reminds me of an incident I had a year or two back.  I was riding an electric bike and passed a chap on his non-assisted bike.  As I went by he yelled out "Cheat!".  A mile or so further on I had stopped on a footbridge over a road for a drink from a water bottle and he caught up and stopped for a chat.  I questioned how I could be a "cheat" when I wasn't in a competition.  We had a laugh and both went on our way.  But it's a valid question in the context of this thread.  How can you cheat if you're not competing?

 

 

He really shouted cheat? Although was it just sarcastic? 

 

To your point about competition, you are right of course we arent competing. But you can cheat yourself cant you? Do something which ultimately is detrimental to yourself?

 

And if you are teaching someone and omit something are you not cheating them? 

 

 

Anyway are we done now? My fingers are tired. 

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Seems to be a long winded thread that's beating about the bush. Yes words can offend, so choose them wisely, performance enhancing aids, short cuts, using the tools available, what words are acceptable ?

I fly for my own pleasure ? Perfect, can think of no better reason, so why are we being so sensitive ?

[John Stainforth]

I don't think Jon is using the words "cheat" and "lazy" in an offensive sense. Indeed ours is not (ostensibly) a competitive pastime, so we are not cheating others by our own approaches to model flying. What Jon is talking about is "cheating" ourselves, i.e., making ourselves seem more accomplished than we are by using various aids that hide our deficiencies. The ultimate is autopilot that flies a plane very well but teaches us little or nothing about flying.

Edited February 27, 2023 by John Stainforth

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

I never called the student lazy or a cheat as they didnt do anything wrong. He was just trying to takeoff but didnt know how. He was solo, so had no assigned instructor, just bystanders watching. There was then a choice to 'cheat', circumvent the problem and teach him nothing with a hand launch, or teach him something new. 

 

He was very happy to receive the help and i was happy to provide it. 

 

Did i run around screaming my club mates are cheats? No. What would be the point? Was i disappointed none of them asked how i was able to take off when they couldnt? yea. It was an opportunity lost for everyone. 

 

Both yourself and leccy seem to be offended by this cheating business and i am not exactly sure why. 

 

Because calling people cheats and lazy on a public forum is just as rude, disparaging and discouraging as if you used those words face to face! Whilst watching you dancing on the head of a pin justifying your words is semi-amusing at one level, it's also embarassing, especially given you represent a brand that sells high quality, high value products directly to members of this forum. You state above that calling your club mates cheats on the field would achieve nothing, but you seem perfectly happy to do it here - why? Don't you think that's a bit hypocritical?

 

It may suprise you that I don't really disagree with any of the content you've posted in this thread about how to use things like gyros or expo to support a beginner, but I DO strongly disagree with the tone of it's delivery. "Cheat" or lazy" could easily have been replaced with phrases like "would be better advised to", but you've chosen not to do that. Instead you've doubled down with increasingly convoluted justifications as to why you should be allowed to use those words. I'm not sure why their use is so important to you, what is clear is that a percentage of the readers of this forum - your potential customers - don't think their use is appropriate, or that they add anything to your argument. After all, it's well understood that consumers do make buying decisions based partly on the social media behaviours of brand reps - just look at the US distributor of Jeti who spends all his time sabotaging Spektrum, Futaba and Frsky threads on RCGroups and has put so many off the brand worldwide. YMMV.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

20 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Seems to be a long winded thread that's beating about the bush. Yes words can offend, so choose them wisely, performance enhancing aids, short cuts, using the tools available, what words are acceptable ?

 

My view is that if you wouldn't use a word to someone's face, don't use it on the forum to describe the actions of the another person, hence the post above.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 minute ago, MattyB said:

 

My view is that if you wouldn't use a word to someone's face, don't use it on the forum to describe the actions of the another person, hence the post above.

 

No disagreement here Matty, forums a tool best used carefully.

I have however used the term face to face, but would be more careful on a forum.

[MattyB]

5 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

 

No disagreement here Matty, forums a tool best used carefully.

I have however used the term face to face, but would be more careful on a forum.

 

Yes, me too, but never in the context of telling a learner what they might be doing wrong. That kind of help can can be given far more effectively in other ways whether online or F2F.

Edited February 27, 2023 by MattyB