Does it take long to reach this level of proficiency?

[paul devereux]

I know this pilot is very good, but does it take a long time to learn to fly something like this? It is the kind of flying I aspire to- I believe prop-hanging takes a special type of aircraft set up, but is this the general level of flying we can achieve after we have managed the basics?:

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by paul devereux

[paul devereux]

To be clear, I don't mean the aircraft and setup, I mean the manoeuvres. Because I'm learning by myself and teaching myself, and having only a small field to fly from, I keep my speed down (quite close to stall most of the time) and I like to fly tight turns and rolls. I have a feeling though that club flyers fly faster and cover more sky. I quite like feeling the loss of response when approaching a stall, because I can just put in some throttle and we are flying again. But I realise I'm probably getting bad habits that more experienced fliers don't have. 

[Nigel R]

Some may get that good fairly quickly.  

 

Some may never get that good.

 

Get a simulator and get practicing...

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

One clue is to look at the age of the pilot. While some who start flying later in life can reach a high level with a combination of aptitude and dedication, it’s often the case that these skills are picked up at a very early age.  A very competent show pilot at our club was asked how he learnt to orientate himself with his model through complex manoeuvres - his answer was that he had no idea and just knew instinctively. He’d been flying models since he was old enough to hold a transmitter though. 
 

Most pilots can relate to this in their own experience - remember when you were learning and had to think about which way to move the ailerons when coming towards you?  At some point the corrections became instinctive.  With advanced 3D flying this has to extend to making corrections and movements in 3 axes and all orientations in fractions of a second. 
 

So the answer to your question is no, not everyone (probably the majority of us) has both the capability and dedication to achieve the standard in the video but if you want it enough there’s nothing to stop you trying - at the least you’ll become a more skilled pilot. 

[toto]

I think it takes flying to another level. I'm sure with practice ...... lots of it ...... you would get there but maybe not anytime soon. I dont think this level of attainment happens overnight.

 

Whilst I understand its horses for courses, to be honest this kind of flying doesn't really interest me personally but I do like to watch others practice their craft,

 

By the sounds of your previous posts Paul, you seem to pick things up very quickly ( inverted flying for instance ) so keep going and I'm sure you will get there. 

 

The best of luck with your endeavours.

 

Some progress videos would be amazing.

 

Toto

Edited July 16, 2023 by toto

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

How longs a piece of string, some new lads I have taught to the solo stage never go on to become more than average, others have progressed rapidly, some of it is inherent ability, most is self discipline and practice/practice/practice. A question that can only be answered by the individual.

[Nigel Heather]

One factor, in my experience - the less concerned you are about crashing the faster you will progress, the more concerned you are about crashing the slower you will progress.

 

I’m in the latter category I’m afraid - have a lot of hours, can probably fly all sorts of manoeuvres, I can in the simulator, but when it comes to the real thing I bottle it and play it safe.  I find myself hamstrung worrying about how much a crash will cost.

 

This has particularly held me back learning helicopters.

[toto]

I dont mind taking on some calculated risks. One of my biggest wishes is to be able to fly low. ( more than anything else ) flying 3 mistakes high doesn't let you view the grace of the model enough.

 

I like to be able to really see the models bank into a turn and do fly by's etc. Some nice rolls and knife edges and even when performing loops, I'd prefer to be coming out of the bottom of a loop at about 15 feet. 

 

If I can reach the above, and never get any better ...... I wont be disappointed.

 

Toto

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I wouldn't worry about it and just have fun, of our 46 members there is only one capable of doing that, and it's with an electric Epp plane and the triple axis gyro, and it isn't me.🤢

[David Davis]

The following may be of some interest and relevance.

 

We had a seventy year-old join the club last October. He had never flown an r/c aircraft before but he soon learned, passed his Brevet A, the French equivalent of the BMFA A Certificate, a couple of months ago and now he flies his OS 46 powered Calmato with great skill and elan and he's one of the best pilots in the club.OK he doesn't prop hang!

 

Having said that, he's a retired commercial airline pilot and instructor so he has a good understanding of aerodynamics. He also had to learn to fly Mode 1 because out of thirty members in my club, I am the only Mode 2 pilot. He described Mode 2 as "plus logique!"

 

I have been flying r/c for thirty-three years but he's a better pilot than I am. My flying skills are pretty average which is why I limit the aircraft I build and fly to models which are pretty stable. I have no wish to learn how to prop hang. Just sayin.

[GrumpyGnome]

@paul devereuxdepends on you, and the plane. 

 

I can't do it outdoors but can do it indoors with a suitable plane - a Crack Yak Superlite.  Took just a couple of battery packs to learn.

 

Oddly, such things outdoors leave me cold, but seem right and proper indoors.....

[Engine Doctor]

How long is a piece of string ? 

[GrumpyGnome]

Mine is 2.4".....

[Engine Doctor]

Stop boasting 😉

[Learner]

9 hours ago, paul devereux said:

To be clear, I don't mean the aircraft and setup, I mean the manoeuvres. Because I'm learning by myself and teaching myself, and having only a small field to fly from, I keep my speed down (quite close to stall most of the time) and I like to fly tight turns and rolls. I have a feeling though that club flyers fly faster and cover more sky. I quite like feeling the loss of response when approaching a stall, because I can just put in some throttle and we are flying again. But I realise I'm probably getting bad habits that more experienced fliers don't have. 

The issue is how many manoeuvres do you want to learn, theres plenty of choice and the top freestyle/3d extreme pilots invent new ones every year. To perfect each one takes time.

I think I read in a magazine one of the top pilots saying he flew 3 hrs a day most days  and an hour or two on the sim the others.

As in most things your own commitment is the highest barrier!

 

[MattyB]

9 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

One clue is to look at the age of the pilot. While some who start flying later in life can reach a high level with a combination of aptitude and dedication, it’s often the case that these skills are picked up at a very early age.  A very competent show pilot at our club was asked how he learnt to orientate himself with his model through complex manoeuvres - his answer was that he had no idea and just knew instinctively. He’d been flying models since he was old enough to hold a transmitter though. 
 

Most pilots can relate to this in their own experience - remember when you were learning and had to think about which way to move the ailerons when coming towards you?  At some point the corrections became instinctive.  With advanced 3D flying this has to extend to making corrections and movements in 3 axes and all orientations in fractions of a second. 
 

So the answer to your question is no, not everyone (probably the majority of us) has both the capability and dedication to achieve the standard in the video but if you want it enough there’s nothing to stop you trying - at the least you’ll become a more skilled pilot. 

 

Agreed. One thing regarding 3D flight though; irrelevant of age of the pilot, in my experience good 3D pilots always seem to have learnt their core skills on the sim intiially. Once they are rock solid in the hovering basics on the sim practice in the real world goes up, but the difficulty of practicing hovering "3 mistakes high" and the cost associated with any mistake means you are much better learning on the sim at first. PRofeicient 3D pilots have crashed a whole lot of virtual aeroplanes!

Edited July 17, 2023 by MattyB

[J D 8]

  My RC factory Flash is the only model I am happy doing low level aero's with, probably because it is a lightweight EPP tough and fixable.   Even with some 40 years plus of RC flying I am not that great at aerobatics.

 Being ambidextrous is useful like when doing spanner work, screw driver stuff, and I can belt in nails with either hand.  However when flying I sometimes feel like there is something of a lack of cooperation between left and right hands. I write with my right but type with only the left as asking both to work together is difficult. Practice on the Transmitter has improved things over the years mainly the need to coordinate with the rudder on WW1 and some other types.

Trying to learn to play the recorder at school was a hopeless job and just got me a slap across the back of the head.😬

[Nigel R]

4 hours ago, MattyB said:

PRofeicient 3D pilots have crashed a whole lot of virtual aeroplanes!

 

one thing I found really handy with the sim was being able to slow down time (phoenix). learn the skills for a maneuver, then gradually wind the wick back up to real time.

 

phoenix also logged your total simulator time, which made for some interesting metrics on how quickly (or not) I picked things up (and how many virtual airframes were re-kitted).

 

bear in mind, with 3d, you have around four times as many orientations to learn for each maneuver, compared to your average up-the-strip-turn-around-down-the-strip-turn-around type pattern. reactions have to be baked in enough to be second nature, in all those orientations.

 

[leccyflyer]

Dunno about how long it takes to reach the level of proficiency shown in the OP video, I guess it depends. The mindset to abuse a poor little Fly Baby by prop hanging and torque rolling it is probably there already from a very early age. 😉

[Phil Green]

I find my own flying skills are going the other way... not quite incompetent yet, but getting there... 😄

[kc]

I reckon waliking up to and  standing that close to a 210cc engine hovering vertically is reckless in the extreme!   Any slight problem with the radio and it's in the pilots face.  

[Cuban8]

A lot of very clever flying from many youngsters....................I bet they get dad to pay for the breakages though!

[Peter Jenkins]

One doesn't need to stick to 3D aerobatics at zero feet.  Precision Aerobatics is what was and is still flown for aerobatics at National and International levels.  The FAI set these schedules and they change every 2 years.  This video of the current Preliminary Schedule (P23) has been flown by Juan Rombaut on a Real Flight Sim.  This has in addition to the video of the flight, the Tx stick movement, the Aresti diagram of the flight, a text description of the current manoeuvre and Juan's commentary on what he is doing as he flies the schedule.  There are 17 manoeuvres in this schedule and it takes between 7 and 8 minutes to fly it.  

 

There are much simpler schedules that are used in our National competitions as well.  The entry schedule can be flown with a Wot 4 type aircraft properly set up.  I demonstrate this to those who want to have a go at precision aerobatics.  You do need a decent amount of power to fly the large manoeuvres but normal club models will get through the entry schedule provided you keep the size of the manoeuvre down.

 

Hope this inspires a few more to have a go.  You don't need expensive specialist aircraft to fly aerobatics properly but you do need to set up your aircraft correctly (small control throws, CG in the optimised position, thrust line adjusted for both side thrust and up/down thrust for starters).  This does make any club aircraft fly much better and becomes more relaxing to fly without having it feel all twitchy.  A common misconception of precision aerobatics, probably because most have seen a 3D model with massive control throws, is that more control movement is good.  WRONG.  The usual starting set up used for aerobatics is:  Elevator plus/minus 10 degs, ailerons plus/minus 10 degs, rudder 25 degs.  You will need more elevator movement for spinning but most get that by using rates.

 

Anyway, enjoy this flight of the FAI P23 schedule by Juan Rombaut, a Spaniard who is often in the top 15 in the world.  .

[paul devereux]

21 hours ago, toto said:

I dont mind taking on some calculated risks. One of my biggest wishes is to be able to fly low. ( more than anything else ) flying 3 mistakes high doesn't let you view the grace of the model enough.

 

I'm with you on that. I like low and slow. Though I admit I'm drawn to pioneer aircraft, which were built with low-powered engines (I believe the Wright brothers had to design their own) and as light a possible. Everyone is different, but I have no interest in jet aircraft that fly just through the virtue of their engine power. To be honest, I don't really have a great deal of interest in my Wot 4, apart from it being a useful plane to learn on. After my first flight, when I crashed it in a few seconds, I bought a replacement fus (the wing rip was easily mended) and another complete Wot 4 Foam-E, thinking I would need it in a short while. It is still boxed in the loft, (but may well come in hand soon, lol!)

I have this suspicion that it may be too easy to learn on, as it flies so slow, and just a bit of throttle gets it out of trouble. But that is probably newbie overconfidence and my back-up will soon be brought into play.

[toto]

Each to their own .....low and slow sounds good to me.......

 

Let's see that left princess when you decide to liberate her ..... 

 

Toto