Laser engines - the state of play following their closure

[Nigel Dell]

Totally agree Ron, Jon w@s an exceptional ambassador to the brand.

[Ron Gray]

9 hours ago, Nigel Dell said:

Totally agree Ron, Jon w@s an exceptional ambassador to the brand.

Yep, Laser ran through his veins, shame his bosses didn’t give him the support he deserved, absolutely disgraceful.

[extra slim]

There are sadly no winners in this situation. Just look at the publicly available accounts and you don't need to be Sir John Harvey-Jones to see why we are where we are. I'm surprised many folk are surprised. The figures are self explanatory, and the writing was all over the wall I'm afraid for a while. The loyal following and the people here who invested in the new projects all in good faith are left with uncertainty, and bitterness, which is wholly understandable, as the owners appeared to let things continue, with you guys and Jon. knowing the inevitable was on the cards. I truly hope AGC are able to complete the items as a parting professional and reputational gesture and with Jon's admirably principled approach to his customers, the chapter has a happy ending. 

 

Fingers crossed for you all. Here's hoping.

[Engine Doctor]

Modern parlance " its just business, nothing personnel". As a modelling community we were lucky the brand didnt ceace production when Niel retired some years ago. I hope you all get the modified parts for you inlines and get thdm in the air. 

Jon's position  is just another example of collateral damage in the closure of the factory who it appears only mades Lasers as a side line.

RIP LASER ENGINES

[Rocker]

So I take it getting my Laser Engines serviced or any spare parts now are not looking good 😩

[David Davis]

Model Shop Leeds is taking over the distribution of the spare parts.

[Cuban8]

On 27/03/2024 at 09:19, Ron Gray said:

Yep, Laser ran through his veins, shame his bosses didn’t give him the support he deserved, absolutely disgraceful.

In my note here to Jon wishing him the very best, I did also comment that I wasn't in the least bit surprised at what had happened.

My own personal feeliings and opinions are that it appeared that AGC's production and R&D of Laser engines was very much always a bit of a 'hobby' venture hanging on the coat tails of the main business, that was indeed very successful in its own way when model flying was booming.   However,  they never really seemed to want to expand their products, production and customer reach beyond what might be described as a bit of a niche audience, rather than appeal to those modellers who didn't crave larger and complex engines. The smaller Lasers were very good, but the default was always to go for OS, Enya, Saito etc and eventually the Chinese clones that offered a very good and cheaper option for the average modeller and gave the Japanese manufacturers themselves a run for their money.

Laser  advertising was very minimal beyond a very small offering in the back of the mags as far as I know and recall, which always seemed odd to me.  Anyway we are where we are.........Japanese fourstroke engines are  crazily expensive now and the Chinese clones like ASP, SC and Thunder Tiger unavailable. An open goal for Laser Engines that they didn't appear to want to avail themselves of?

Just a few thoughts that may or may not have merit, but the fact of the matter is that the bosses of Laser are perfectly entitled to do as they please with the business as they see fit and suits them best.

[Ron Gray]

29 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

but the fact of the matter is that the bosses of Laser are perfectly entitled to do as they please with the business as they see fit and suits them best

And we mere punters who have put thousands into their coffers (possibly only covering their costs or maybe not even that) are entitled to query the, on the face of it, very selfish attitude of taking the Laser name to the grave with them rather than allow an opportunity for others to step in to continue it (much as Neil did when he retired). Of course there may well be no takers but at least keep the door open.

Edited March 31 by Ron Gray

[Solly]

37 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

In my note here to Jon wishing him the very best, I did also comment that I wasn't in the least bit surprised at what had happened.

My own personal feeliings and opinions are that it appeared that AGC's production and R&D of Laser engines was very much always a bit of a 'hobby' venture hanging on the coat tails of the main business, that was indeed very successful in its own way when model flying was booming.   However,  they never really seemed to want to expand their products, production and customer reach beyond what might be described as a bit of a niche audience, rather than appeal to those modellers who didn't crave larger and complex engines. The smaller Lasers were very good, but the default was always to go for OS, Enya, Saito etc and eventually the Chinese clones that offered a very good and cheaper option for the average modeller and gave the Japanese manufacturers themselves a run for their money.

Laser  advertising was very minimal beyond a very small offering in the back of the mags as far as I know and recall, which always seemed odd to me.  Anyway we are where we are.........Japanese fourstroke engines are  crazily expensive now and the Chinese clones like ASP, SC and Thunder Tiger unavailable. An open goal for Laser Engines that they didn't appear to want to avail themselves of?

Just a few thoughts that may or may not have merit, but the fact of the matter is that the bosses of Laser are perfectly entitled to do as they please with the business as they see fit and suits them best.

Don’t forget Weston UK are still advertising the Magnum 120 and 180 four strokes, although I don’t know what their supply situation is.

[Eric Robson]

Depending on patents someone could possibly make a clone if they thought it was a viable venture. I wouldn't think patents would worry the Chinese if they thought it would make money. The big problem now is the diminishing interest in power flying as seen by the number of engines going off the market and as seen in The big question thread everyone wants something different to the point where its not viable to produce small amounts. 

[Ron Gray]

I was thinking more on the lines of a 'cottage industry', as a full blown business it just doesn't stack up.

[kc]

My view - as an outsider  - is that you should now treat this just like one would any business.  If you have a defective product then ask the supplier to rectify or replace, and also claim against your credit card company if a credit card was used. ( even just the deposit for any item costing over £100 )   Also if a debit card was used but not all debit cards take responsibility.  

I would suggest that if any company holds an item for servicing, modification etc and seems likely to cease trading one should take every step to get back actual possession of the item.    Maybe state a deadlne for return or a solicitors letter.

 

 

Do all this as soon as possible as once any company ceases trading it may become much more difficult.

 

Just my comments that would apply to any supplier that has sold items that are  " not of merchantable quality " or become faulty.

[Cuban8]

43 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

And we mere punters who have put thousands into their coffers (possibly only covering their costs or maybe not even that) are entitled to query the, on the face of it, very selfish attitude of taking the Laser name to the grave with them rather than allow an opportunity for others to step in to continue it (much as Neil did when he retired). Of course there may well be no takers but at least keep the door open.

I agree with you 100% Ron and feel sorry for those who are either waiting for engines or warranty work. Seems a terrible waste to simply chuck away a business just because the owner himself doesn't wish to continue and there's an obvious potential to expand in the right hands - maybe they did consider passing it on but even with a peppercorn payment there were, apparently, no takers. Wouldn't surprise me.

[RottenRow]

As Geoff (owner of AGC and hence Laser Engines) appears to be putting a value of zero on the company, perhaps he could make the CNC files available to anyone who would like them.

 

As the Lasers are largely made of CNC machined parts, these could perhaps then be made by another company (or companies) who have suitable machining capabilities.

 

There would be a lot of work involved for whoever took this on. Perhaps a group of like-minded modellers?

 

Brian.

[kevin b]

Has anybody considered asking how many engines were actually sold last year ?

Any business where the owner is retiring always looks to maximise the return on their assets.

Remember Solarfilm anybody ?

That was a lot more viable business than Laser (with all due respect), yet nobody took it on.

The obvious way forward was petrol engines. Nobody really enjoys cleaning the gunk off of their high hours build scale model and all the aerobatic people are flying electric now.

At this moment in time (and for the forseeable future) the investment required in time and finance to produce small petrol engines is not justifiable and Jon will tell you that converting an existing engine is not a small job. Also I doubt that the market is there for them anyway. The same can be said about Flair kits. If there was a viable market with the manufacturing costs involved, they would probably still be being produced.

I think you will find that most (if not all) the model aircraft and kit manufacturers in this country are "hobby", or to put it another way "cottage" industries.

In my opinion I think there are a lot of peopl out there who do not realise the costs involved in manufacturing anything in the U.K.

Particularly where the market is very small (such as ours). 

[Rocker]

Oh well that is life. Have to buy Saito engines now .😩

[Cuban8]

44 minutes ago, RottenRow said:

As Geoff (owner of AGC and hence Laser Engines) appears to be putting a value of zero on the company, perhaps he could make the CNC files available to anyone who would like them.

 

As the Lasers are largely made of CNC machined parts, these could perhaps then be made by another company (or companies) who have suitable machining capabilities.

 

There would be a lot of work involved for whoever took this on. Perhaps a group of like-minded modellers?

 

Brian.

I know we're talking on a totally different scale and different circumstances but that's not too dissimilar to the fall and rise of Triumph Motorcycles. It just needs commitment and a love of the marque.

I really don't think Laser ever really pushed and marketed their products properly. So many times I heard from friends  that they'd go for a Laser but the carburettor position was terrible. Why was that never addressed? If it worked for OS and Saito etc what was the big problem. I know Jon had a point of view on this matter and I respect that, but it did have an effect on losing  some sales to their competitors. 

Edited March 31 by Cuban8

[Ron Gray]

31 minutes ago, kevin b said:

Remember Solarfilm anybody ?

That was a lot more viable business than Laser (with all due respect), yet nobody took it on.

They were beaten at their own game by Far Eastern products that were / are arguably better than their own (with the exception of 'tex and Clear Coat). Regarding taking it on, I did enquire about the rights to produce Clear Coat but was told that I couldn't afford it!

 

34 minutes ago, kevin b said:

The obvious way forward was petrol engines

Not necessarily, the sub 50cc market wants 4 strokes due to noise restraints and Laser offered an excellent range to suit that (dwindling) market and as for mess, what mess, the latest Laser engines running low oil produce no more mess than a petrol jobbie.

 

37 minutes ago, kevin b said:

manufacturing anything in the U.K.

Various options here, as a cottage industry you would seek out precision engineering companies who would produce parts in their 'down time' so it would be a limited supply but still a supply. Alternatively, there are precision engineering companies in India who could produce small runs of the parts. The assembly of the parts would then be done here, in the UK by a one man band type setup. Over simplifying I know but..........

[Shaun Walsh]

12 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

They were beaten at their own game by Far Eastern products that were / are arguably better than their own (with the exception of 'tex and Clear Coat). Regarding taking it on, I did enquire about the rights to produce Clear Coat but was told that I couldn't afford it!

 

Not necessarily, the sub 50cc market wants 4 strokes due to noise restraints and Laser offered an excellent range to suit that (dwindling) market and as for mess, what mess, the latest Laser engines running low oil produce no more mess than a petrol jobbie.

 

Various options here, as a cottage industry you would seek out precision engineering companies who would produce parts in their 'down time' so it would be a limited supply but still a supply. Alternatively, there are precision engineering companies in India who could produce small runs of the parts. The assembly of the parts would then be done here, in the UK by a one man band type setup. Over simplifying I know but..........

I dare say that Progress Aero Works in Macclesfield could do it if they had the time and inclination. 

[leccyflyer]

55 minutes ago, kevin b said:

 

Remember Solarfilm anybody ?

 

Yes, it was fine in the 70#s but hugely surpassed by far, far better, more robust and higher quality films, such as Profilm. Solartex certainly deserved preserving, but Solarfilm surely won't be missed, in all it's saggy, wrinkly glory. The Far East films, like the HK ones were far superior to the original Solarfilm.

[kc]

Interestingly another firm produced a very similar looking engine to the Laser called the Flyte 150 back in 1998.  Reviewed in AMI March 1998.   I wonder whatever happened to that?  

[Andy Stephenson]

Reports were that the Flyte 150 was simply awful and only lasted a few runs.

[Ron Gray]

Yes, a very poor copy of a Laser, poor materials and bad machining.

[Don Fry]

I’m a bit reluctant to pick over a carcass. But Laser have always been about £100 quid or so too cheap at retail. So me being tight, can acquire a second hand motor good for a thousand hours, hardly run, tough, for peanuts. Name me a reason, why should I pay a lot more for a Japanese motor, and buy flimsy. 
Why not sell the company, the tooling is the company, and they have nice tooling.

[Ron Gray]

37 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

the tooling is the company, and they have nice tooling.

Probably not owned by them, just hired.