The future of ic engines in our hobby.

[kevin b]

Following the demise of Laser engines there has been a lot of discusion.

I feel however that those discusions should now be held on a more general basis covering all manufacturers and systems.

I think steam power might be stretching it a bit, but what the heck !

As with all historial hobbies (yes, that's what we are now), if there is a demand someone will endeavour to supply that demand - at a price.

Unfortunately our particular hobby has now moved beyond the point where the demand for our favoured power system is not sufficient for the required ongoing investment commercially to be viable. Not at least regarding mass production. Note for example that O.S. no longer manufacture small capacity glow engines. How long before they stop producing all glow engines ?

Somebody mentioned in a thread earlier  PAW engines. An excellent example of what is possible in our hobby. But it is a niche market within a niche part of our hobby.

That particular company has found a way to make it viable. However there is very little forward development and commercially it is totally reliant on us continuing to buy new ones.

People resurrecting any extinct manufacturers product will need extensive technical information in order to do so and in many cases that is no available.

So to do so would require somebody who has a passsion for engineering as opposed to that for aeromodelling (unless they have extremely deep pockets !)

However I do see potential for those with engineering experience to provide a service, such as we see in vintage motoring and sailing as specialist restorers.

Then also we must accept the realisation that our branch of the hobby will not be in the "buy a lump of fridge packing and throw it in the air cheap" bracket.

 

Ok.   Over to you.

[Rich Griff]

PAW ci IC engines are wonderfull bits of kit, but paw also do precision engineering too, so are "similarish" to laser in that respect, a multi stringed bow.

 

Noise and fuel availability/cost are the deciding factor as to using an IC motor I feel.

 

Electric propulsion is also noisey and possibly more annoying to some people.

 

The "hobby"/sport is continually being challenged with increasing rules, it's participant becoming "de skilled" due to fantastic foamies rather than "hand made" plan based models.

 

For me, either kit or more often plan based hand made flying models being IC powered ( but I do have some electric propulsion models ) and/or slope soarers is the way to go.

 

We are all different but have one thing in common, a desire to fly an RC model aeroplane.

 

Sadly I cannot afford to fly the real things.

 

Enjoy the hobby while we still can.

 

Happy Easter, and landings.

 

 

 

[Paul Marsh]

Luckily I've got loads of engines and more than enough for my lifetime, and there a loads out there still ok, so even though 99% of model engines aren't made anymore, still can get them at least for a while.

OS, Saito are the last main 2 of glow engines, now, OS only do a fraction of the range, but still.

[David Davis]

I was once on the phone to Mr Eiflander, the manufacturer of PAW model diesel engines. He told me that his main business was in making parts for machines which are used in hospitals, so the engines were just a sideline.

 

I built and flew my first r/c aircraft in 1988 having built free flight and control line models in the Sixties. In 1988 every model on the flight line was built by the pilot or purchased second hand and they all had an i/c engine in the nose. Today most of the models at my club's flying field are electric powered ARTFs. C'est la vie.

 

However, some of us like engines for some unfathomable reason and enjoy getting them to run properly. Some of us don't mind cleaning a little oil off the side of the model at the end of the day and some of us like the sense of satisfaction you get from building a model from scratch and watching it take flight, but we are a disappearing minority.

 

Those of us who like engines may bemoan the paucity of new ones which are available but given the fact that so many good second hand engines are available at very reasonable prices, our needs will be catered for for some time to come.

 

I've just worked out that I have thirty-three engines ranging from a Mills 75 to a Laser 160V. Having turned seventy-six on 11th March I think I have enough to be getting on with. For the time being at least.

[Tim Hooper]

There are thousands of perfectly good, albeit used, IC engines out there.

 

I think that the future availability of fuel will be the deciding factor.

 

Tim

[leccyflyer]

At a recent swap meet there was a table of small glow engines for sale, for a pound each, including a little run Enya 25 in very clean condition, a beautiful piece of engineering. You literally couldn't give them away, though I've actually given away quite a few engines in the past few years. There are still loads of glow engines out there, if they never made another one there would still be sufficient to meet the likely demand. Better that they get used, rather than languishing in engine collections or worse still abandoned in a box under the bench, but TBH the demand doesn't seem to be huge, as electric is so much more accessible, easy to use and effective. In the size range that glow engines tend to inhabit then it's become perfectly clear that good electric solutions are readily available to do that job. It is only in the larger sizes, where petrol engines take over that electric propulsion becomes more challenging.

[Jonathan W]

8 minutes ago, Tim Hooper said:

There are thousands of perfectly good, albeit used, IC engines out there.

 

I think that the future availability of fuel will be the deciding factor.

 

Tim

Yes, I think fuel and glow plugs will ultimately be the show-stopper for us glow die-hards.

 

Nobody in UK is making plugs anymore. Optifuel did not continue with the Model Technics plugs.

 

Southern Modelcraft had supposedly sold their fuel business, but the new owner appears to have done nothing with it, as far as I know.

 

That leaves Optifuel and Weston. Alan at Weston is no spring chicken, so who knows how much longer he will continue?

[Jonathan W]

To give you an idea how things have changed, my father and I used to go to Benson's Chemists on the A6 in Stockport to buy methanol, castor oil and nitro-methane to mix our own fuel. Imagine doing that now!!!

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

11 hours ago, Jonathan W said:

To give you an idea how things have changed, my father and I used to go to Benson's Chemists on the A6 in Stockport to buy methanol, castor oil and nitro-methane to mix our own fuel. Imagine doing that now!!!

I got mine from the chemists at Newcastle in the early 70's, and my little cox's ran on it without nitro.

[J D 8]

   For bigger motors it will be back to converting chain saw, strimmer motors. some of them are 4 stroke today.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Spares might also be an issue, clubmate had an arrival that snapped the needle and housing off the carb, can't find anyone with spares, but I have a crate full of glow engines so might find something in there.

[Pete Knight]

I agree with much that has been already stated, I have a good collection of diesel and glow motors (2 and 4 stroke) I often repair club members motors at just the cost of the parts (mainly engine bearings) I buy old / new engine spares when I see them as our stocks in the shops are quickly reducing, again affordable glow plugs and fuel are becoming hard to find, I have used Southern Model Craft fuel more than 20 years and when I was talking with Dave at Much Marcle last year was confident the new owner would be producing the fuel at similar prices and quality, but alas I can't see any shows with the new owner attending????

I can see the benefit of Electric power but recently asked a fellow member how much he paid for the 6 cell pack was amazed and likely not going to last more than a couple of years, so for me I will stick with my IC motors for as long as possible.

[Cuban8]

Regrettably, newcomers to our great hobby will be less likely to encounter IC engines when they buy their gear and will almost certainly start off with an electric power system in the future. This has been the case for quite some time now and is a reflection on how the hobby has been changing away from the old days of the 1950s/60s/70s etc.

I say regrettably because I think the pleasure in running IC engines and becoming proficient in their operation was all part of the modelling right of passage. Just to be clear, I'm not stuck in the past missing the castor gunge over models, I simply regret that the choice will become more and more restricted. Even starting out with electric power (very sensible IMHO) and then subsequently  looking to explore the fascinating world of IC will become more and more difficult. Electric power is mostly a means to an end for our models, whereas a nicely running IC engine (particularly a 4St) is very much more than a power source.

I enjoy taking my leccy models out - no fiddling around - no cleaning etc etc when I have only an hour to spend flying, but there's a certain something about bringing an IC model to life with the starting process, the sound and vibration running through the airframe and the wisp of exhaust.

Still plenty of opportunity to enjoy all that now, but not perhaps for newer generations given the way things are expected to go for us over the next decade.

 

Edited April 2 by Cuban8

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

How true.

 

On Saturday, the best flying day in (short term) memory our pits area was full of foam EDF jets with just a handful of EP propeller driven models.  The only internal combustion engines were propelling members' cars - and even then, the proportion of electric cars arriving at the club is steadily increasing.  I had nearly taken a "proper" model but due to a bit of ongoing personal maintenance work, I needed to avoid lifting too much so I let the IC side down as well.

[Murat Kece 1]

I think like the cars IC is dying of.. Electric is the future.

 

[Stuart Z]

It’s sad to think IC is disappearing I think the IC engines still have a great deal going for them and a lot more character.  Learning  to manage them is something to be learnt -yes- but electrics leave me confused and Lipo’s are a potential disaster if mishandled and can explode in the extreme.  I looked at the cost of converting one of my IC models to electric and the cost was alarming.  The cost of batteries is significant to the extent that the project has been shelved.  Let alone  having additional batteries in the garage.  Fortunately I have plenty of engines still in stock.  I have enough fuel to last me and it is stable in the fridge.  A big argument against IC is the noise but a good silencer solves that and I have the silencers to cope with all my engines.  Seems that most model shows and many clubs have users of large petrol engine some of which are both large and quite loud, but these seem to be quite acceptable. 

[Adrian Smith 1]

Well the decision to be made by transitioning from I/C was a simple one. Having graduated from glow to some of the larger petrol engines required for large scale beasts it reached a point where the decision to go all electric was reached. Until recent years the battery technology just didn't measure up as far a duration and performance was concerned.  That's all changed now along with the advent of great performing Opto Escs rated up to 200A and top of the range supplier Hacker we prominent. As a philistine I disliked starting I/c motors in cold weather and pre petrol the mess and fuel ingress glow engines left behind. Noise became an issue where I am based even using good silencers and tuned pipes surprisingly. Electric transforming it had to be. I agree the upfront cost of electrification is quite substantial, but I was fortunate to be able to do it. It is eminently possible to fly 60cc sized models using good electric gear. The duration may not always match 10-15 minutes of glow or petrol, but 8 minutes+ for me is enough for my concentration! I accept that with some of the larger electrics emit some noticeable prop noise, but nothing like my old I/C engines. I can't say I have looked back since. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

1 hour ago, Murat Kece 1 said:

I think like the cars IC is dying of.. Electric is the future.

 

It isn't, yesterday at a local club meeting, only 1 Hyundi Ev, 30 Ic cars 3 Ic motorbikes and even a Ford Anglia estate, yes in France,

as for planes 1 bixler 1 flying wing a biplane and 2 gliders on electrics, all the others including beginners on Ic planes, the tug Ic and around another 30+ planes all Ic and 1 big turbine powered Mirage 2000.

[David Davis]

1 hour ago, Murat Kece 1 said:

I think like the cars IC is dying of.. Electric is the future.

 

 

 

If electric is to be the future it's a good job that I'm not going to be around for that much longer! 😏

[Stuart Z]

Sadly I understand that feeling only too well        

Still my stocks will last me!

Edited April 2 by Stuart Z

[David Davis]

1 hour ago, Stuart Z said:

Sadly I understand that feeling only too well        

Still my stocks will last me!

 

and mine.

[911hillclimber]

Just my take on this subject. I last flew/used IC when in short trousers almost and I cycled everywhere.

I was 12, so about 1964.

In 2020 I had retired early and fancied a return to model flight for some weekday action, preferably with vintage planes, ie Ben Buckle.

 

However, what was all this RC malarky?

I needed a trainer, so bought a foam Kingfisher with electric and all the gubbins needed and joined the local club.

IC there is restricted to say the least, so electric was ideal, fly any day that allowed it weather-wise.

Preparation very simple, charge the night before, go and learn to fly (not quite there yet).

 

My 'buddy'/trainer flies a 4 stroke and it is really nice, love the sound, lover the performance (heavy plane cuts the air).

 

However, cannot see me doing an IC ever, electric is just so convenient, bit lazy maybe, but I feel the right thing for me to restart the hobby.

Is electric the future, I think it is, BUT, if you try a little, IC can be the way for ages.

Fuel and noise will determine the way it travels, or rather glides, to the ground.

 

I'll be long gone, but have memories of my new found hobby as electric, and a distant memory of my ENYA glow in my control line.

[Shaun Walsh]

2 hours ago, Stuart Z said:

It’s sad to think IC is disappearing I think the IC engines still have a great deal going for them and a lot more character.  Learning  to manage them is something to be learnt -yes- but electrics leave me confused and Lipo’s are a potential disaster if mishandled and can explode in the extreme.  I looked at the cost of converting one of my IC models to electric and the cost was alarming.  The cost of batteries is significant to the extent that the project has been shelved.  Let alone  having additional batteries in the garage.  Fortunately I have plenty of engines still in stock.  I have enough fuel to last me and it is stable in the fridge.  A big argument against IC is the noise but a good silencer solves that and I have the silencers to cope with all my engines.  Seems that most model shows and many clubs have users of large petrol engine some of which are both large and quite loud, but these seem to be quite acceptable. 

Hope the fridge isn't turned on. Flammable liquids stored in the fridge are a serious explosion risk, a loose cap or slight leak can lead to a build up of flammable vapour which a spark from the thermostat switch can ignite.

The lab I worked in had a special fridge for storing flammable liquids which had all the electrical equipment on the outside of the fridge isolated from the interior. 

[Stuart Z]

13 minutes ago, Shaun Walsh said:

Hope the fridge isn't turned on. Flammable liquids stored in the fridge are a serious explosion risk, a loose cap or slight leak can lead to a build up of flammable vapour which a spark from the thermostat switch can ignite.

The lab I worked in had a special fridge for storing flammable liquids which had all the electrical equipment on the outside of the fridge isolated from the interior. 

Suprisingly I knew that.  It’s an old fridge that is both light proof and heat / cold proof and unused.  It stands there as a store cupboard and the fuel fit fits in nicely.   I also store the few Lipos I have in special Bat Safe boxes.  I keep the risks low.  
Some leccy fliers I know have large puffed up batteries that I would not give house (or garage) room. 

[Shaun Walsh]

9 minutes ago, Stuart Z said:

Suprisingly I knew that.  It’s an old fridge that is both light proof and heat / cold proof and unused.  It stands there as a store cupboard and the fuel fit fits in nicely.   I also store the few Lipos I have in special Bat Safe boxes.  I keep the risks low.  
Some leccy fliers I know have large puffed up batteries that I would not give house (or garage) room. 

Excellent. I check the internal resistance of my lipos regularly and if it rises to high or too quickly or if they are badly unbalanced they get fully discharged and disposed of. They live in liposafe bags in a 50 calibre ammunition case with a big bag of cat litter on top. The hope is that if they do catch fire the cat litter bag burns releasing the mineral cat litter to slow the spread of the flames. Hope I never find out if it works 🙏