steve too Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 11 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said: ... should you take an HGV driving test to drive your mini just because it's only once you have to pass it? ... An HGV test would take more than 15 minutes while I have a cup of coffee on a non-flying day. 11 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said: Those purporting to be in control should organise themselves to set the rules in a clear, precise and logical manner and people might feel more inclined to follow them. The BMFA made something simple complicated. They should not have got involved with competency. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyinFlynn Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, steve too said: An HGV test would take more than 15 minutes while I have a cup of coffee on a non-flying day. That is irrelevant to the principle. 2 minutes ago, steve too said: The BMFA made something simple complicated. They should not have got involved with competency. Hence my previous 'Too many fingers' comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 10 minutes ago, steve too said: The BMFA made something simple complicated. They should not have got involved with competency. The Caa keep changing the goalposts and the Bmfa have made mistakes trying to keep up. But I think it's some Bmfa members making it more complicated than it needs to be. Plenty are having no problems. They also have the option of just doing the Caa test. Edited January 8 by Learner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 While there’s the option to let the CAA handle flyer and operator registrations exclusively, my feeling is that the BMFA (and other organisations) involvement in the process must have had benefits in tempering some of the excesses that might otherwise have occurred. Acting in conjunction with the CAA may also enhance their credibility as a responsible organisation which can only be of value in the future. To be honest, I can’t claim to be able to interpret the CAA exemption wording, which seems pretty ambiguous in the matter of Flyer ID requirements for data gathering sub 250g UAS. Andy’s statement is certainly the case for operation outside the scope of the exemption but hopefully the BMFA will clarify any anomaly in due course. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve too Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 20 minutes ago, Learner said: The Caa keep changing the goalposts... The CAA have just removed an exemption that they never should have granted. There is no way that an old A or B means that somebody understands the current regulations. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 19 hours ago, Nigel Armstrong said: Would it not be easier to make passing the RCC test a condition of membership of the BMFA? It would seem reasonable to allow a period of grace before it had to be passed, but it would make the position crystal clear. Just my opinion. This is a totally barmy situation. Ride a pushbike on the road - highway code but no legal requirement to read it.........no test...... go rock climbing, as far as I know, no test........Cut people's hair professionally, sharps, infection risk etc - no test.......buy a chainsaw or any other power tool that could kill or maim - no test..........make tea and sandwiches for a local society - no hygene test........... have and bring up a child, no test (maybe a review on that one 😉). A multitude of others can be thought of easily. On the other had fly a recreational model aircraft or drone ...........and a raft of regs are conjured up for us. Yes, yes, yes......all very easy, doesn't affect us that much, follow the law and so on, but is it all really needed and is the registration scheme as a whole for recreational users actually serving a worthwhile purpose? Cost usually get people's attention, I wonder how that's working out at the moment? It really does all need looking at again at some point - very rarely is anything totally right and effective first time round. We can't have chaos with UAVs flown all over the place as and where people fancy, but to my mind what we have now, certainly how its been implemented, is OTT. Edited January 8 by Cuban8 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, John Rickett 102 said: 5.1 Remote Pilot Competence It is a legal requirement that anyone who flies a model aircraft or drone outdoors with a take off mass 250gm or above, or that has a camera attached must have a CAA Flyer ID. Previously BMFA members who hold a valid BMFA Registration Competency Certificate (RCC), or a BMFA A or B Certificate passed before 31/12/2020, did not require a CAA Flyer ID. This has now changed and you will require a CAA Flyer ID. However the BMFA can request the Flyer ID on your behalf. there does seem to be conflicting information... but I agree, just do it and forget about it for 5 years 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D 8 - Moderator Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Coastguard call out to a Yacht in trouble of Pembrokeshire coast towed in by Lifeboat. Before I had a chance to speak the captain he said " I have my yacht masters ticket" I said where did you get that, the Solent? How do you know that he said in surprise. I explained the Atlantic coast is very different kettle of fish and in days of sail sailors from here had no trouble getting a job anywhere in the world. At least he had a ticket and commercial fisher/lobster boats have to register but jo public could purchase just about any size of sail or powerboat and off to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottenRow Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 38 minutes ago, Cuban8 said: This is a totally barmy situation. I suspect that most on this thread will agree with that, but it is where we are and have been for the last five years, with relatively minor inconvenience. The changes introduced recently (the requirement for a Flyer ID and removal of the A and B grandfather rights) are really only minor and those of us who already took the RCC or CAA test really have nothing more to do than keep the Flier ID with them. And the BMFA have now included the Operator and Flier IDs on the membership certificate, so that is easy. As soon as those who, until now, relied on their old As and Bs have been brought up to date then everything will be sorted. Brian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 It was somewhat inevitable that the grandfathering in of those with a BMFA A or B Certificate would be closed off. There is a strong bias in the RCC test towards the legal framework and ensuring familiarity with the requirements to fly in accordance with the regulations. There is precious little content in there about actually flying a model, in terms of flight manoeuvring or even pre-flight preparations and no test of flying competently at all, How could there be, in the present format? It is all abut ensuring that the pilot to be has read and understood the regulations. The fact that it is on a rolling 5 year cycle ensures that the pilot's currency is valid, over an optimised period, not a perpetual qualification. It is very reminiscent of the mandatory periodic training that is present throughout industry and commerce these days - fire safety, anti-bribery, modern slavery, IT security etc etc etc - and usually delivered on a regular basis via online videos, with an accompanying multiple choice test at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, RottenRow said: I suspect that most on this thread will agree with that, but it is where we are and have been for the last five years, with relatively minor inconvenience. The changes introduced recently (the requirement for a Flyer ID and removal of the A and B grandfather rights) are really only minor and those of us who already took the RCC or CAA test really have nothing more to do than keep the Flier ID with them. And the BMFA have now included the Operator and Flier IDs on the membership certificate, so that is easy. As soon as those who, until now, relied on their old As and Bs have been brought up to date then everything will be sorted. Brian. With respect, the CAA could insist that all flyers must wear a top hat 🎩 when operating their drones or model aircraft. Hardly an inconvenience but with very little use or advantage to anyone. I and almost all modellers I speak to also question the usefulness of registration and on line tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottenRow Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 16 minutes ago, Cuban8 said: With respect, the CAA could insist that all flyers must wear a top hat 🎩 when operating their drones or model aircraft. Hardly an inconvenience but with very little use or advantage to anyone. I and almost all modellers I speak to also question the usefulness of registration and on line tests. Yes but that comment has been banded about a number of times over the five years or so that we’ve been required to comply with the CAA’s regulations. I really can’t see the relevance of the top hat scenario… sorry. Perhaps you should take that up with your MP. See how far you get. We have to accept that the regulations are here to stay, irrespective of their effectiveness, as we’re not going to change that. What we can do, however, is to attempt to prevent them getting more onerous in the coming years. With the help of the BMFA of course. Brian. 6 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Armstrong Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I wonder how many people have left the hobby as a result of all the regulations now in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Cuban8 said: With respect, the CAA could insist that all flyers must wear a top hat 🎩 when operating their drones or model aircraft. Hardly an inconvenience but with very little use or advantage to anyone. I and almost all modellers I speak to also question the usefulness of registration and on line tests. Doesn't your club have a Top Hat rule? Very bad form, dontcha' know. Very non-U! It all started to go down hill when we stopped getting our ties caught up when starting out Mills diesels. 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 9 minutes ago, Nigel Armstrong said: I wonder how many people have left the hobby as a result of all the regulations now in place. Seriously, if anyone were to leave the hobby because of a wee bit of paperwork and a few regulations, then it's safe to say that they possibly were not really into it all that much. The impact of a few catastrophic crashes, where damage is limited to the entire airframe is a far more potent and heavy hint to discourage flyers from continuing in the hobby, but the majority of us just shrug our shoulders, pick up the bits and carry on. We're not that easily dictated to or put off and they shouldn't start talking like that until they are marching up Whitehall and even then we won't listen. We don't need a Big Wing, or a small wing. We need pilots.😉 9 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Mark Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, Nigel Armstrong said: I wonder how many people have left the hobby as a result of all the regulations now in place. 42. 🤣 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Mark Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 This is a thread much in need of a @Brian Cooper ending. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Symons - BMFA Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 8 hours ago, John Rickett 102 said: Andy, I'm now confused, not that I want to indulge in small models carrying cameras, however when it comes to doing the RCC tests, this is what the BMFA currently says in its Article 16 authorisation: 5. Remote Pilot Requirements 5.1 Remote Pilot Competence It is a legal requirement that anyone who flies a model aircraft or drone outdoors with a take off mass 250gm or above, or that has a camera attached must have a CAA Flyer ID. Previously BMFA members who hold a valid BMFA Registration Competency Certificate (RCC), or a BMFA A or B Certificate passed before 31/12/2020, did not require a CAA Flyer ID. This has now changed and you will require a CAA Flyer ID. However the BMFA can request the Flyer ID on your behalf. Now says 5. Remote Pilot Requirements 5.1 Remote Pilot Competence It is a legal requirement that anyone who flies a model aircraft or drone outdoors with a take off mass 250gm or above must have a CAA Flyer ID. Previously BMFA members who hold a valid BMFA Registration Competency Certificate (RCC), or a BMFA A or B Certificate passed before 31/12/2020, did not require a CAA Flyer ID. This has now changed and you will require a CAA Flyer ID. However the BMFA can request the Flyer ID on your behalf. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 But does it still require a Flier ID if it's a toy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Symons - BMFA Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, Nigel Armstrong said: I wonder how many people have left the hobby as a result of all the regulations now in place. Not as many who have left after being persuaded that the relatively light amount of regulation is a massive burden when it isn't. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Yup, threads on forums and other social media platforms blowing it out of all proportion are, I'd wager, far far more detrimental to the hobby........ 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Robson Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 How are we expected to remember the rules when most of us can't remember what we went upstairs for😄 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stainforth Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 I think the BMFA should issue a "C" certificate (for Congratulations and Compliant) to all those who have managed to satisfy all the necessary test and registration procedures! (This would come with some big stickers saying "Compliant" to put on one's planes.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) My 'Top Hat' remark was intended to be tongue in cheek but with the serious point that we as a group of people who are following a legitimate activity as a hobby or purely for recreation, have been sucked into a maelstrom of inappropriate rules and regulation (to say nothing of extra cost) because of outside forces that have come about through no fault of our own. A lot of those rules have no meaning to models flown at most club sites and indeed in many other locations where the hobby has been followed for many years. The alarm bells should have rung much louder as all this was kicking off a number of years ago, as it was found to be unable to define exactly what a model aeroplane was, and therefore your Junior 60 was actually (and absurdly IMHO) classed as a drone and would be lumped in with the legislation to prevent potential drone chaos (allegedly) at airports, sport events and invading people's privacy etc etc. Moreover, the crazy fear of our operations causing problems for widespread 'Drone Deliveries' for consumer products, that we were promised were about to be common place and would be criss crossing the land and possibly over our flying fields on a regular basis, but have actually turned out to be a dream stuck on the drawing board - certainly to remain there for many years to come. Please note the emphasis on consumer goods, and not the good work that commercial drones are doing in various ways and have virtually zero interaction with R/C model flying. Unless one is an anarchist, people are generally happy to comply with rules and regulations that are plainly for the common good and have an obvious benefit (we all agree to drive on the left side of the road in the UK as an example). I don't see much in the way of how our lot has improved from how we operated for decades past TBH. I accept that not complying would mean the end of the hobby, but I don't view going along with a flawed scheme to be much of a 'benefit'. From many conversations with club mates, who through gritted teeth have gone along with all this because they have to, there is still a deep feeling that we've 'been had' and my comments do contain points that have been raised by many others. I do think it's important to talk about this - hopefully, the BMFA in its excellent work in dealing with the CAA on our behalf, are taking note of all points of view within these discussions. Edited January 9 by Cuban8 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D 8 - Moderator Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Right, sorting my model flyer CAA renewal and am now [confused.comm] Went to BMFA MEMBERSHIP PORTAL-JustGo.com and it just pretty much says pay your £11.13 to renew ones Registration with drone and model aircraft registration and education scheme. Nothing about having to do the test. Someone explain please. Have not put payment in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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