The Big Question ?

[Graham Bowers]

12 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

I was planning on launching a country wide Wacky Races next year but with a different model.

Up for that!

[martin collins 1]

Something like this  Ron?

[PatMc]

4 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Yes I did, he sold me the worse radio that I ever had, a Mcgregor 4 channel radio, a great HP .40 rear engine and a half plastic DH chipmunk, that it all went into,

I remember the shop next door who put an Elephant's foot outside to show that he was open until it was stolen.

 

 And flying off of Newcastle Town moor,,,

He firmly believed that everyone should only buy from their own LMS. If he didn't recognise you as a regular local he wouldn't sell you any high value item & was reluctant even with consumables.

I'd been to a business meeting near his shop once & popped in to buy some fretsaw blades. Whilst there had a look round & made some queries about a couple of interesting S/H engines he had for sale. He told me a cock & bull story that the 2 particular engines were reserved for a regular customer. Then he quizzed me about my LMS & why was I not giving them my trade, followed by a lecture on the evils of people buying engines, kits, radio gear etc at Elvington & other shows instead of their LMS. Finally he begrudgingly sold me the fretsaw blades I was after. 

 

I once noticed that when flying at the town moor his Tx was always in a home made soft leather cover. I was told that he made sure it didn't get marked in any way so that it could be sold as new shop display stock. 

 

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

What's Lms ?.

 

yes, he did see me coming, full of lolly,,,🤢

[leccyflyer]

LMS = Local Model Shop.

[RICHARD WILLS]

Its like herding cats isnt it ? 

So . Ron . Lecky , the lesson learned from the Hanky Planky .is that you go to a fair bit of effort creating a cheap easy build model (keeping in mind that Ron can and does build and enjoy large and exotic) Do a sales routine war dance for your club and others , to have a reasonable success but no follow up ?

If that is pretty much it , then we could also throw Graham Davies and Eric the professor's excellent foam prototypes in , along with Martins Bf109 .

What I mean is , all three of you have shown your respective club mates how to create super stuff on the cheap with alternative materials.

So is it that you can go and buy a far more attractive foam artf at a boot fair , which obviously negates the joy of build and ownership ? 

Is it that only a laser cut build in wood is considered to trump the foam ARTF and justify the time/outlay ?

 

I get a lot of feedback from flyers up and down the country . Two other factors are worth a thought . Lots of people dont have decent runways . Secondly , many artfs with complicated features like , retracts , scale wheels , four blade or special props , are laid up because a part  has broken or gone missing . 

Putting those facts together , gives you an idea that taking the rather frail but detailed model to a rough patch = Frustration . 

Conversely , I was flying this week on the one good day , and three of our lads were having a wonderful time with the old Ripmax Spitfire/109 /P51 .

20 years old , simple but still hit the spot in the air as realistic and smooth representations.

I vaguely recall them being about 46" span on 3s  , hand launched , impeccable slow speed handling . 

 

 

[martin collins 1]

Great models those Ripmax fighters, had several of the Spits, probably would sell a few of those if still available. Might persaude some to move on from the current 'in' model which seems to be the Ruckas at the two clubs i fly at. 

[John Lee]

16 minutes ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

 Is it that only a laser cut build in wood is considered to trump the foam ARTF and justify the time/outlay ?

 

That is all I build nowadays.

 

Essentially it must be a 3D jigsaw where all the parts fit perfectly, you barely need a knife, and frustration is not part of the equation. I have plenty of ARTF's to meet all my flying needs so the building must be a pleasure in its own right, rather than a means to an end.

 

The last few kits I have purchased to meet this criteria were purchased from Continental Europe having seen them in the German FMT magazine (obtained as part of my Readly subscription, in German but you can look at the pretty pictures!).

[Eric Robson]

My latest foam model a 65" Me 109f, it is a mixture of foam board depron balsa and ply. The retracts may be attached to the fuselage as an experiment, Richard's idea. I will post a build on it when it progresses.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Eric Robson

[Trevor]

To pick up on a couple of things John Lee said:

 

 "I have plenty of (models) meet all my flying needs so the building must be a pleasure in its own right, rather than a means to an end." I agree 100% - it's getting harder and harder to justify a build by a gap in my fleet.

 

"FMT magazine . . in German but you can look at the pretty pictures!)." When my employer was taken over by Siemens, I received compulsory 1:1 German lessons for a while. The tutor quickly realised that her standard texts were not proving very engaging so she asked about my interests. I took in FMT and we set about translating the articles I was interested in. She broadened her vocabulary considerably - and I did learn a bit of German along the way too!

 

Trevor

[Ron Gray]

My view on what would sell, a 1200 - 1500 ws FW190, leccy powered, hand launch but with provision for retracts if required. Must be quick build so predominately veneered foam for wings and fuse, moulded canopy and cowl and spinner for 2 bladed prop. Leave finish to customer - brown paper, lam film, ‘normal’ film. Now here comes the crunch, Dynam foamie 1200 FW190 is circa £200 with electrics!

[RICHARD WILLS]

I'll get my coat . 

[leccyflyer]

9 hours ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

Its like herding cats isnt it ? 

So . Ron . Lecky , the lesson learned from the Hanky Planky .is that you go to a fair bit of effort creating a cheap easy build model (keeping in mind that Ron can and does build and enjoy large and exotic) Do a sales routine war dance for your club and others , to have a reasonable success but no follow up ?

If that is pretty much it , then we could also throw Graham Davies and Eric the professor's excellent foam prototypes in , along with Martins Bf109 .

What I mean is , all three of you have shown your respective club mates how to create super stuff on the cheap with alternative materials.

So is it that you can go and buy a far more attractive foam artf at a boot fair , which obviously negates the joy of build and ownership ? 

Is it that only a laser cut build in wood is considered to trump the foam ARTF and justify the time/outlay ?

 

I get a lot of feedback from flyers up and down the country . Two other factors are worth a thought . Lots of people dont have decent runways . Secondly , many artfs with complicated features like , retracts , scale wheels , four blade or special props , are laid up because a part  has broken or gone missing . 

Putting those facts together , gives you an idea that taking the rather frail but detailed model to a rough patch = Frustration . 

Conversely , I was flying this week on the one good day , and three of our lads were having a wonderful time with the old Ripmax Spitfire/109 /P51 .

20 years old , simple but still hit the spot in the air as realistic and smooth representations.

I vaguely recall them being about 46" span on 3s  , hand launched , impeccable slow speed handling . 

 

 

Flew my Ripmax Bf109E on Monday as part of my annual Adler Tag commemoration - I know, but she'll get another outing on 15th September for Battle of Britain day 🙂. Probably the least popular of the three Ripmax funfighters, but a superb flyer, which strangely can bite on handlaunch. Monday's flight was the best I've had in terms of a lovely straight launch, cured by launching at about 75% throttle, which meant that the corrective right rudder wasn't nercessary. None of that angst needed for the Ripmax Spitfire and Mustang - I agree Richard that these are all superb models on 3s1p 3300mah packs have excellent performance and suitably hassle free.

 

I'm having deja vu now, as the downside of the Ripmax Spitfire is the ugly cowl - much nicer fibreglass replacements are available at modest cost on eBay. The joy of these models is that at 48" span  you can fit all three of them in the car, rigged and armed with a bunch of lipos have a full day of fun, The other downside is the horrib;e, non scale printed film, but they fly so well I'm prepared to tolerate that. I wonder how they would take to being repainted?

[MattyB]

16 minutes ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

I'll get my coat . 

 

FWIW, whilst I applaud your multiple efforts to get and answer to this oft asked question of "how do we get people to build from kits", you may have to accept that the reason people don't is not because the products on offer aren't right. My view is that the world has changed, and there simply  aren't enough people left who are still involved that really want to build in that way, if at all. 

[Don Fry]

I reckon, very long term balsa hacker.

A mix of foam board, plastic print, and wood. Behind my skill set. I’d have a go, just to learn. Not that interested in what it is, but a little more sexy than a wot 4, acrowot.

So a warbird, forget the undercarriage, waste of space and weight. Might I suggest, it comes with the plastic tubes and elastic to launch the thing. Arthritic limbs and pre senile reflexes can’t cope with chucking and props, and sticks. At the same time. 
Electric, 4000 4s size, car chucked in, hoots of laughter, break it, build another. As in the ill judged inverted low pass. 

 

A clever designer can do that. 

Richard, the big question? 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

120 size FW 190, basic kit will do me ala Mick Reeves style, don't need the bells n whistle just want an airframe I can go to town on or not.

The small hand launch jobbies are available elsewhere, this size is scarce or a big wedge of money for an artf.

[Don Fry]

Won’t disagree John. 

But, a 120 size is a goal for a lot of people, they are not  biros for anybody.

A foamy looks great for 10 flights with care. The balsa stuff, glass, paint, I can do, but they are work, time, money. Also tech older that I am. 
I think there is a middle way. And a 4000 4 s machine is an impulse buy.

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

If Richard finds a market on here for the impulse buyer via smaller stuff, I'll be happy for him and any buyers Don.

[Eric Robson]

 

I Recently priced up a Mick Reeves Spitfire 74" which I had a 125  Saito available and it was going to cost a lot of money to complete to a good standard.  I found one on the BMFA classifieds unflown with all in bar the engine and throttle servo well finished with full panel and rivet detail,  I bought it for £350, less than half the cost of building one..

So even a basic kit for an Fw 190 120 size would cost more than many would be prepared to pay. 

As I have said before  60" span would be a good size to aim for hand launch or retracts,  retracts for those who fly alone or with health problems and are unable to hand launch. The Fw 190 and Seafury are ideal for belly landings no radiators underneath but I can't see it happening. Part kits could be a solution with laser cutting built up wings are easy simple flat bottom fuselage shape like the Kyosho would cut costs,  a vacc formed cowl and canopy,  and options to be upgraded but the big question is  who will buy.

[Chris Walby]

Is it about the model or the audience? If you want to sell quantity then cheap high wing trainer (only because that's where the majority of new people start)? The alternative is ask 5 modellers and get a wish list of 10 different models.

 

IMO the niche is the ability to produce kits in very low numbers to order or as Richard has done in the past and rallied the buyers to make a minimum number batch.  

 

I am not planning to go all electric, but I am very much in the minority as old modellers can't be bothered with IC and the newbies don't want the expense of the additional IC kit. I would say 4S5000 batteries and the corresponding drive train and model to suit would keep the cost down and appeal to more people. What you make it out of is almost irrelevant IMO.

 

Last and most important is getting the flying community to actually realise that you have a model to sell. If no one knows you are making them then no one will buy them. The number of models I have and model flyers ask me who's kit/supplier its from...I then ask if they have heard of them and the reply is almost always they hadn't. 

[Graham Davies 3]

Like this then?

 

Regianne Re2005

 

55" (1400mm), flies on 4S 3700 packs for 10 minutes. Flies off a rather rough patch and flies from retracts without issue. I went to town and fitted retracts and flaps and it is still just under 5 pounds. Without those and with a set of thumb grips, it would be easy to hand launch and would weigh 4pounds. It's foamboard, a tiny bit of balsa, some expanded polystyrene to shape the nose/ cowl and is covered in brown paper. Emulsion paint finish, and patented Richard Wills finishing techniques. It looks great, flies well, cost hardly anything. 

 

Graham

 

[leccyflyer]

Gorgeous. 😎

 

I'd certainly be up for a 1.5m span FW190 if one were on offer.  With that same basic configuration it might also be possible to add a Zero, Hellcat, Sea Fury and suchlike as alternatives.

 

 

[Graham Davies 3]

Thanks Leccy,

 

This was made directly from a 3 view. I could make ANY warbird I choose. At this scale, I can make a wing structure that supports retracts; I'd have to think about how to do it if it were a bit bigger, but it would certainly be possible. The problem is that if we can't currently convince the great unwashed to build a foam veneer/ laser cut kit, then getting them to build a foamboard kit is a big ask. It's not that hard, but calls on a bit of problem solving and manual skill, which is a scarce commodity these days, it seems.

 

Moreover, I think the finishing is the big problem. It takes a bit of time, and it would seem that the non-building sector of our hobby does not have the time to send making these simple models look good. Personally, since Richard showed me some basic techniques, I love this part of a build. It can be done in your armchair, in front of the telly, and really gives you something you can be proud of.

 

Graham

[Graham Davies 3]

41 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

Gorgeous. 😎

 

I'd certainly be up for a 1.5m span FW190 if one were on offer.  With that same basic configuration it might also be possible to add a Zero, Hellcat, Sea Fury and suchlike as alternatives.

 

 

I might have to knock up said 1500mm FW190 now. I think I heard the gentle clang of a gauntlet hitting the ground...

[Eric Robson]

27 minutes ago, Graham Davies 3 said:

I might have to knock up said 1500mm FW190 now. I think I heard the gentle clang of a gauntlet hitting the ground...

Quite an easy model to make in foam board Graham it's on  my list but so are many others, I would like to do a foam board ic model. But all this is counter productive to solving Richard's dilemma.