Speed limits in Wales

[J D 8]

Hi Martin, Yes it is the driver who has responsibility for the speed driven but it does not help that that the car makers have speedometers that read up to silly speeds for every day cars. End result is dials where the lower speeds register in a small segment bottom left of dial.

 My daughters Focus estate speedo reads up to 160 mph and even my old Landy's one is 110!

[ the only way it would reach the national limit is down a steep hill with the wind behind on a good day and one was feeling brave ] But it has gone places other vehicles can not reach.

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

What you need is one of these!

 

[J D 8]

  Yes I do need one of those but it would be for my 63 2a under slow restoration.

[Shaun Walsh]

1 hour ago, John Lee said:

As your tyres wear down their radius decreases & your speedo will increasingly under read your true speed, giving a little bit more margin for error.

 

What you need to be really careful of is replacing tyres with anything other than those which fully comply with the manufacturer's specification. Fitting tyres with increased sidewalls (eg to improve ride comfort as sometimes recommended by 'none official' sources) will give an increased radius & circumference, so your speedo will under read and leave you vulnerable to inadvertently exceeding the speed limit.

If you change to higher aspect ratio tyres you have to fit wheels with a smaller rim diameter for that very reason.

[Ace]

Apologies slightly off topic but a True story and the only time I have been stopped for speeding:

After leaving the forces mid 80's I got a job as a milkman. Electric float on the flat 15-19mph, however my run back to the depot took me down a steep hill in Toton. Speedo only went to 30mph - accuracy ? However if you knocked it out of drive and freewheeled downhill it bent the needle (huge heavy lead acid traction batteries). Speed trap at the bottom of the hill and plod stopped me. Q - how fast were you going. A - speedo said 30mph officer. Reply - try 43mph. Me- surly not this is an electric milk float they won't go that fast. Officer - get off no one is going to believe me.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

7 minutes ago, Ace said:

Apologies slightly off topic but a True story and the only time I have been stopped for speeding:

After leaving the forces mid 80's I got a job as a milkman. Electric float on the flat 15-19mph, however my run back to the depot took me down a steep hill in Toton. Speedo only went to 30mph - accuracy ? However if you knocked it out of drive and freewheeled downhill it bent the needle (huge heavy lead acid traction batteries). Speed trap at the bottom of the hill and plod stopped me. Q - how fast were you going. A - speedo said 30mph officer. Reply - try 43mph. Me- surly not this is an electric milk float they won't go that fast. Officer - get off no one is going to believe me.

 

That you Ernie ? 😉

[PatMc]

3 hours ago, John Lee said:

As your tyres wear down their radius decreases & your speedo will increasingly under read your true speed, giving a little bit more margin for error.

 

What you need to be really careful of is replacing tyres with anything other than those which fully comply with the manufacturer's specification. Fitting tyres with increased sidewalls (eg to improve ride comfort as sometimes recommended by 'none official' sources) will give an increased radius & circumference, so your speedo will under read and leave you vulnerable to inadvertently exceeding the speed limit.

Doesn't your second sentence example contradict the first example ? 🤔

[John Lee]

14 hours ago, PatMc said:

Doesn't your second sentence example contradict the first example ? 🤔

Sorry Pat, yes, too many 'unders' used in slightly different contexts!

 

Perhaps best to give a worked example. 

 

The speedo commonly works by measuring the rate of rotation of the wheels, measured by sensors on a drive shaft, the ABS system or a cable from the gearbox. It then converts that to a calibrated speed.

 

If you have a typical 26" diameter tyre & wheel at 30mph it will be doing 387.85 RPM. Let's say the speedo is dead accurate at that calibration.

 

If the tyres wears down by a quarter of an inch (6mm) and your speedo still reads 30mph you will be doing 29.42mph.

 

If you put on tyres with a half inch bigger sidewall without compensating with smaller wheel rims (as mentioned by Shaun) when your speedo reads 30mph you will be doing 31.2mph.

 

 

 

 

[Cuban8]

On 02/10/2023 at 20:27, J D 8 said:

   Drat and Double drat, got me a ticket for 35 in a thirty.

First motoring offence in fifty three years of driving/riding.[ still have just paper slip] What's more it was in my old Land Rover Ninety. Thought I would have been ok as had spotted the van and checked speedo. However tests with my daughters modern car following shows my speedo under reads by 4/5mph.

   Have to do the speed awareness course, the fee/fine for which is one the highest in the country.

         I do not often drive out of my home county these day's my most regular "long" trip is the 32miles to the club flying field.

         Most annoying is having to drive to the next county to attend it, a round journey of 101 miles for me.

  Those of us who live in the county of Pembrokeshire feel we are second class citizens having to travel for most services [medical]these days.

 

That really gets my goat when I see the antics of so many drivers blatantly ignoring the 30mph limit along the long straight stretch of road outside my house. A school at the end of the road as well. Our local councillor tried his very hardest to get a couple of those radar triggered speed reminder signs to be installed, but after an investigation using road sensors by the highway dept, it was stated that the average speed of vehicles over a two week period was 30.9 mph! So there wasn't a problem as far as they were concerned. Conveniently ignoring the crazy peak speeds that they must have recorded throughout the day and especially at night and in the early hours. A suggestion that permanent 30mph signs should be put up at the starts of the long stretch was dismissed, because it didn't follow national practise of not having 30 mph signs where there are street lights because it might confuse drivers. Nonsense.

 

[Zflyer]

Apparently unless they ask you dont have to mention it as it is not a conviction, straight quote from the Speed Awareness course

[Erfolg]

One aspect of this discussion seems to be missed. That is that a 33% reduction in speed limits will and should come with a economic cost.

 

The transfer of goods from outside of Wales should take 33% longer. Suggesting a minimum of each delivery costing more, in driver cost and wagon/truck availability.

 

I hope that the Supermarkets will reflect these increases in costs, in Welsh stores, not those of the stores in the rest of the country. I reflected that when my daughter lived in Inverness that deliveries would normally cost more, that often with extended delivery times, in some cases deliveries were not made to the Scottish Highlands (which Inverness was considered to be). A lot of people did not like the situation, arguing that all should be treated the same.

 

By all means have a 20 mph speed limit, just do not expect others to pay for it.

 

An aside I live on a road with a 20 mph speed limit, as you can guess not all recognise it. In our case it is used as a rat run to avoid a set of traffic lights some 1/2 mile away (so it seems). The limit does not seem to have much real impact, in speed reduction, by what appears to be the majority, including those who live a bit further down the road.

 

[John Lee]

19 hours ago, J D 8 said:

 Hi Frank, The speed was checked by my daughter following in her modern car with GPS sat nav and digital read out. 

I do not have an android phone just a basic one for when out and about as most of my time is spent at home where the mobile signal is zero.

  Many people who work for things like bank's, electric companies ect just do not believe one has no mobile signal.

Conversation goes " You have a mobile?"  Me. Yes, but no signal.  "I will send you a code" Me I have no signal. "OH, Give me your mobile number and I will send you a code and you will have five minuets to get into signal and send me the code" The conversation then goes on to how long/far I have to drive to get a signal.

  Will have to get something as at 20 Landy's speedo is even more rubbish, needle just jitters up and down. Its a 33 year old mechanical unit the design of which goes back eons.

         

 

You can get car GPS speedos that stick on the top of the dashboard for about £15 from the likes of Amazon & eBay, or use a cycle one that has its own power. They don't use a mobile signal.

[Frank Skilbeck]

2 hours ago, Erfolg said:

One aspect of this discussion seems to be missed. That is that a 33% reduction in speed limits will and should come with a economic cost.

 

The transfer of goods from outside of Wales should take 33% longer. Suggesting a minimum of each delivery costing more, in driver cost and wagon/truck availability.

 

I hope that the Supermarkets will reflect these increases in costs, in Welsh stores, not those of the stores in the rest of the country. I reflected that when my daughter lived in Inverness that deliveries would normally cost more, that often with extended delivery times, in some cases deliveries were not made to the Scottish Highlands (which Inverness was considered to be). A lot of people did not like the situation, arguing that all should be treated the same.

 

By all means have a 20 mph speed limit, just do not expect others to pay for it.

 

An aside I live on a road with a 20 mph speed limit, as you can guess not all recognise it. In our case it is used as a rat run to avoid a set of traffic lights some 1/2 mile away (so it seems). The limit does not seem to have much real impact, in speed reduction, by what appears to be the majority, including those who live a bit further down the road.

 

As far as Ie aware the speed limits on.motorways and main trunk roads haven't been reduced by 33%, so possibly the last few % of the slowest part of the journey has, which will be a negligible affect on the overall.average.

[Erfolg]

Frank

 

If you are correct there is probably no issue. What you indicate is pretty much identical to here.

 

It did seem to me from the news and responses here, that the 20 mph was uniform across the  whole of Wales. Affecting bus services etc. Although I assume Motorways are exempt.

[PatMc]

10 hours ago, Erfolg said:

One aspect of this discussion seems to be missed. That is that a 33% reduction in speed limits will and should come with a economic cost.

 

The transfer of goods from outside of Wales should take 33% longer. Suggesting a minimum of each delivery costing more, in driver cost and wagon/truck availability.

 

I hope that the Supermarkets will reflect these increases in costs, in Welsh stores, not those of the stores in the rest of the country. I reflected that when my daughter lived in Inverness that deliveries would normally cost more, that often with extended delivery times, in some cases deliveries were not made to the Scottish Highlands (which Inverness was considered to be). A lot of people did not like the situation, arguing that all should be treated the same.

 

By all means have a 20 mph speed limit, just do not expect others to pay for it.

 

An aside I live on a road with a 20 mph speed limit, as you can guess not all recognise it. In our case it is used as a rat run to avoid a set of traffic lights some 1/2 mile away (so it seems). The limit does not seem to have much real impact, in speed reduction, by what appears to be the majority, including those who live a bit further down the road.

 

There are not many towns where a delivery vehicle can drive at 30mph the whole of the 30mph limited route, in fact they may not even be able to do 20mph for parts. In practice it's sometimes the case that a restriction on top permissible speed results in higher average speeds for the general traffic flow.

[PatMc]

One possible side effect of the Welsh 20mph restriction that hasn't been mentioned is that it may encourage more drivers to use "rat runs" through quiet residential areas. The speed limit will be the same as the "official" route, the distance will often be shorter, the only real disincentive might be traffic calming measures like speed bumps etc.   

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

9 hours ago, PatMc said:

measures like speed bumps

I hope not, I live next to a rat run which had 5 speed bumps, firstly the bumps are dangerous for 2-wheel vehicles especially kids on scooters, and are loved for their usefulness to start a wheely on them, another problem is noise, heavy braking, trailers towed on the back of cars and vans bonking up and down, as for the 38 ton lorries, then there is the pollution of brake and clutch dust and then the cloud of diesel black smoke from the cement lorry accelerating, now they have put in chicanes it's much better, next step "electric cars only" 😄

[Frank Skilbeck]

16 hours ago, Erfolg said:

Frank

 

If you are correct there is probably no issue. What you indicate is pretty much identical to here.

 

It did seem to me from the news and responses here, that the 20 mph was uniform across the  whole of Wales. Affecting bus services etc. Although I assume Motorways are exempt.

The 20mph limit only applies to.roads which were previously 30mph, i.e. Roads with street lighting with no speed repeater signs. So basically built up areas, a lit carriage way with say 40mph repeater signs is still 40 mph, if local councils want to revert a specific road to 30mph then they can fit 30mph repeater signs.

[Brian Cooper]

When all is said and done, I am fairly appalled that the good people of Wales haven't taken to the streets, pitchforks and flaming torches in hand, to make unequivocal protests about the ridiculous 20mph speed limits.  

[Don Fry]

Quite right Brian,

and get the fuzz sorted, to clear the tracks quicker. Off left thought, some of those mechanical shovels, as used on that film Soylent Green, springs to mind, then fuzz can sort out the contents of the skip at their leasure. 
Then again, why bother with the pitchforks et al, use a mechanical shovel, and out-gun the fuss.

I have a mate in the UK, runs a fourth-hand plant business, cheap as chips. Can put you in touch.

[ron evans]

1 hour ago, Brian Cooper said:

When all is said and done, I am fairly appalled that the good people of Wales haven't taken to the streets, pitchforks and flaming torches in hand, to make unequivocal protests about the ridiculous 20mph speed limits.  

Only "fairly appalled" Brian. To be really appalled try walking down our narrow pavements and have a ton of metal pass by at god knows what speed, no more than a metre away.

 

Or try to get my car on to the road from my drive as  cars appear at high speed around a blind bend, with drivers shaking fists and swearing, swerving all over the road unable to stop.

 

I am afraid many of the "good" people of Wales have no idea that they drive something that can be lethal and it's their right to do what ever speed they like.

 

 

[Cuban8]

2 minutes ago, ron evans said:

 

 

I am afraid many of the "good" people of Wales have no idea that they drive something that can be lethal and it's their right to do what ever speed they like.

 

 

I think it's fair to say that there are a few people that, no matter where they come from, do think it's their "right to do whatever speed they like". Every day experience on the roads, and in particular the motorways, will make that as clear as crystal. Thankfully, the vast majority of all road users do excercise good judgement and stick to the rules - nobody's perfect and we all make mistakes from time to time of course.

I think the meddling with certain rules and regulations by the authorities is often based on doubtful data, think tank opinions, and following what are little more than trendy ideas. Separating the wheat from the chaff is the real issue in question IMHO.

[Frank Skilbeck]

There's also another group who see a speed limit as a target, and will excessively accelerate and brake to hit that limit.

 

We have a bend on our housing estate near a playground, cars used to wizz round so they put in some speed humps, now some accelerate between the humps and then hit the brakes to slow down, actually a 20 mph limit here would have been more appropriate.

[Erfolg]

There does seem to be some ambiguity as to what is now 20 mph. Drivers seem to have to judge/access what is the legal speed. That in itself cannot be satisfactory.

 

Although not fully comprehending the new regulations. I tried to think what would/could it mean if applied in the areas I have lived. The road between Altringham to Chester, I suspect would become a jumble of 20  for much of journey to national speed level, if assumption with respect to street lighting is a criteria. On the other hand, I could and can hurtle down many country lanes, often narrow, sharp bends, little to no pedestrian paths at 60 mph. 

 

There does seem a fair amount of dogma, in both the implementation and ignoring practical issues. This happened near here, where a carriage way was reduced from 4 lanes (no central verge, I have been told). Now is a two lane carriage way, with reduced speed limits, at one time 20 mph where the anti-frackers would wander across the road, sometimes blocking it, I witnessed one with a cardboard box over his head. This road now has oceans of white paint, a significant cycle lane, traffic islands and so on.

 

Dogma is often total stupidity. It must all come with unforeseen costs. The community should at some point be given the opportunity to decide is it worth it, or justified.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

18 minutes ago, Erfolg said:

There does seem to be some ambiguity as to what is now 20 mph. Drivers seem to have to judge/access what is the legal speed. That in itself cannot be satisfactory.

 

Although not fully comprehending the new regulations. I tried to think what would/could it mean if applied in the areas I have lived. The road between Altringham to Chester, I suspect would become a jumble of 20  for much of journey to national speed level, if assumption with respect to street lighting is a criteria. On the other hand, I could and can hurtle down many country lanes, often narrow, sharp bends, little to no pedestrian paths at 60 mph. 

 

There does seem a fair amount of dogma, in both the implementation and ignoring practical issues. This happened near here, where a carriage way was reduced from 4 lanes (no central verge, I have been told). Now is a two lane carriage way, with reduced speed limits, at one time 20 mph where the anti-frackers would wander across the road, sometimes blocking it, I witnessed one with a cardboard box over his head. This road now has oceans of white paint, a significant cycle lane, traffic islands and so on.

 

Dogma is often total stupidity. It must all come with unforeseen costs. The community should at some point be given the opportunity to decide is it worth it, or justified.

 

20 mph zones are pretty clear, normally there are big white letters telling you on the roads, plus a sign at the begining of the zone, the dogmatic ones brought these about, they insist because it's a 30 mph limit they must do that, or above, doesn't require much judgment on the drivers part, due care n attention sorts it. Many 20 mph zones came about through those living there requesting them or accident/death figures.

 

60 mph limit on country lanes is just that, a limit, there's no law says you can't lift of the gas or brake, some dogmatic folk fail to realise this (see ditch at roadside).

 

The costs of "Calming" measures are plain to see, it's also money needed elsewhere, sadly some don't care.

 

30 mph limit was set a long long time ago, life changed, roads got busier, population increased, cars got bigger/faster, to widen roads isn't feasible, it isn't dogma, it's probably long overdue.

 

It put 2 minutes on my journey ? Lol, spent 5 minutes writing this. 😉