Chicken stick upgrade?

[Declan]

Ok so I'm a returning modeller after 15 years absence.  I've got a couple of electric planes now as that's the way it is nowadays.  I've also got a couple of IC planes that I hope to fly next spring.  I DID have an electric starter with heavy battery when I was flying which was only IC.  TBH I stopped using that and would use a chicken stick as for me it was simpler and you had more feel of what the engine was doing so that worked for me.  I was fully intending to go down that road again but I've just purchased an OS FS-95V for my FW190 build.  Reading the instructions the manual says it's intended for an electric starter to prime the engine.  Is manual priming of this engine possible without electric starter given that it's going to be in a cowl.  

If a starter is indeed necessary has anyone utilsed a cordless drill satisfactorily even only just for priming?

[GrumpyGnome]

Personally don't see any point in trying to adapt a cordless drill - just buy something designed for the job and power it with a LiPo...

[Bruce Collinson]

  suspect it depends how you plumb it, but mine won’t prime manually and I don’t use the chicken stick in my flightbox anyway.   I like all my digits as far away from the prop as I can get them.

 

The modern way, which I adopted when I returned several years ago, is a modern starter and a LiPo which will all fit in a flight box.   I use a geared JEN starter and its purpose made battery frame, which bolts on, with an older 4s LiPo.   It will start up to 150 4 strokes and 25cc petrol and it’s cordless, although you can run it off the flightbox battery.   You might get voltage drops to the glow driver whilst starting unless that’s also cordless.

 

Some of my club mates like the chicken stick and reverse flick method but if the OS isn’t primed it won’t start, hence the electric starter as per OS’s manual.

 

The JEN starter has one trait, it can weld its contacts occasionally and nobody seems to know how to prevent this.   Otherwise it has given good service.

 

Hope this helps.

BTC

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

While I agree to - and use - the LiPo solution, it’s possible to prime if you use exhaust pressure.  Just stick a finger over the exhaust exit while you turn the engine by hand with the throttle wide open.  Glow disconnected of course…

[Jim Hearnden 1]

I'll preface this by saying I don't run four strokes but all my 2 strokes are finger start. I've never even cut myself once. Worst accident I've every seen was with a running engine & was stupidity on the part of the pilot & unfortunate for the holder of the model.  THat was horrific & I never want to see that much blood again.

I do have an electric starter, for when I had an IC helicopter. Having said that a while ago I bought a YS140 DZ, that doesn't look particularly friendly to being flick started!

[Don Fry]

Jim, advice, especially if alone. Use pork chops if necessary. Try some flesh interception trials, and then do risk assessments, could I drive myself to casualty. Pain is about the same as a broken nose, broken ribs, but more throbby. More messy.

I have a max size for alone, and never put fingers in the prop arc. 
Times change, we no longer have cars with dodgey brakes

[Jon H]

If hand starting go the b&q and buy a broom handle. Chop off 12-14 inches, and save the rest for future use. 

 

As has already been stated, priming can be done with a finger over the exhaust (wont work on a laser!) and i use this method to hand start the saito 45 in my flair nieuport. I am helped out by the engine being inverted, so the fuel charge 'falls' into the cylinder, but it should work with a side mount as well. 

 

To be honest though, as i posted in the other thread my choice for a cowled scale model would always be a starter with a lipo. I use the big boy 6.5:1 geared job from JE with a 6s lipo on it. This laughs at my 60cc 4 stroke twins and gives me no trouble beyond the occasional switch welding problem already mentioned. 

 

As your 95v is not the biggest of engines the smaller geared starter from JE with a 3s lipo or even a bog stock 12v lead acid would do the job fine. If you are tired of a heavy lead acid, get a small nimh pack instead. I swapped my flight box over to a 3000ish mah nimh and its plenty for the fuel pump and a handful of starts. Its useless on a big motor , but i have used it on my laser 80 without issue. 

[Jim Hearnden 1]

45 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Jim, advice, especially if alone. Use pork chops if necessary. Try some flesh interception trials, and then do risk assessments, could I drive myself to casualty. Pain is about the same as a broken nose, broken ribs, but more throbby. More messy.

I have a max size for alone, and never put fingers in the prop arc. 
Times change, we no longer have cars with dodgy brakes

When I fly alone. which used to be pretty common, I am super careful.

This accident was many years ago at Basingstoke club when we flew out at Oakley. 

Loads flying probably 20+

High wing GRP fuselage trainer with 40-45 on it. Started, launcher picks it up. Nose up, full power, tweak needle. back to idle. Nose up, full power. This time the idiot on the sticks applies full down elevator. The guy holding it has oily hands, GRP fus, his hand slides from mid fus through the arc of the prop. 

He had very serious cuts to his hand & fingers.  He was one of my dads work colleagues. He was of for 6 months plus, serious hand surgery plus plastic surgery. 

He was a car mechanic. 

I have never seen so much blood in my life. We wrapped him up & someone rushed him to hospital which was a fair old way. 

 

Alan I hope you recovered, probably retired now. A stupid, stupid accident.

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I flood my 4 strokes, then two turns to clear them and backflip with my wooden kitchen spoon, the spoon end stops it slipping out of your hand into the face of spectators, (who shouldn't be that close ) if you can't flood them get one of those starters which are geared, 3300mah and 3s does the job for most engines,.

 

I Never fly alone, and it's club policy, the last accident was a club member running his 15cc 2 stroke when his parasol moved from a gust of wind, his reflexes managed to stop it from flying away, but he suffered gashes in his arm and hand, all needing stitches and not in a fit state to drive the 25 kilometers,,,

[Ron Gray]

11 hours ago, Jim Hearnden 1 said:

Nose up, full power, tweak needle.

At the risk of opening up the old can of worms, imo if tuned correctly on the ground there is no need for this and the anecdote above gives another good reason why not to do it.

[leccyflyer]

Hang on Ron, isn't that part of the pre-deadstick ritual, offering up the nose of the aeroplane to the Gods, to make sure that they are paying attention? Then, the next time the nose is raised, during the take off,  the deity known as Propstop, the God of deadstick landings, knows to stop the engine.

[Ron Gray]

Yes, something along the lines of:

 

”We offer up before you this noisy oily beast in the hope that you will see fit to help guide it safely through the air. Oh, and by the way, we’ve thrown in a few sacrificial fingers to help sway you”

[leccyflyer]

I've noticed that it's the engines that are fiddled with and with their noses held up to the heavens that seem to stop. The flyers who start their models easily, with a quick flick, briefly throttle up and then carry the model to the flight line to take off, without that ritual offering, seem to fly the whole flight with no issues, land and repeat.

[EvilC57]

2 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

At the risk of opening up the old can of worms, imo if tuned correctly on the ground there is no need for this and the anecdote above gives another good reason why not to do it.

I’ve seen this old can of worms on here before, and it’s something which has always been (and still is) practiced at our club, in accordance with the BMFA Members’ Handbook (updated August 2023), Section 13.5(i) “After starting the engine and allowing it to warm up, check that the pick-up from idle to full power is satisfactory. Hold the model with its nose pointing upward at a steep climbing angle for ten or fifteen seconds and check engine operation at full power. If the engine falters or cuts it is usually set too lean and must be re-tuned. Repeat the test until the engine runs correctly in the nose up attitude.

 

If this is now considered to be incorrect, maybe it should be removed from future editions of the Handbook.

Edited November 13 by EvilC57

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

I've noticed that it's the engines that are fiddled with and with their noses held up to the heavens that seem to stop. The flyers who start their models easily, with a quick flick, briefly throttle up and then carry the model to the flight line to take off, without that ritual offering, seem to fly the whole flight with no issues, land and repeat.

 

too true. 

 

24 minutes ago, EvilC57 said:

, in accordance with the BMFA Members’ Handbook

 

with the greatest respect to the BMFA, they arent engine manufacturers and as with most people who write articles, run shops, make youtube videos they are enthusiasts working from their own experience without specific technical training or expertise in a given area. As i know myself, they probably also know that anyone who dares to question the old ways is immediately persona non grata. Consequently there tends to be an industry trend towards telling the people what they want to hear as most are impossible to educate. 

 

in any case, the nose up test is utterly pointless at best and downright dangerous at worst. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

37 minutes ago, EvilC57 said:

I’ve seen this old can of worms on here before, and it’s something which has always been (and still is) practiced at our club, in accordance with the BMFA Members’ Handbook (updated August 2023), Section 13.5(i) “After starting the engine and allowing it to warm up, check that the pick-up from idle to full power is satisfactory. Hold the model with its nose pointing upward at a steep climbing angle for ten or fifteen seconds and check engine operation at full power. If the engine falters or cuts it is usually set too lean and must be re-tuned. Repeat the test until the engine runs correctly in the nose up attitude.

 

If this is now considered to be incorrect, maybe it should be removed from future editions of the Handbook.

Pierre is the only member who consistently takes off and has a flame out shortly after take off, has gone back to the old nose up way with great success, 2 weeks on and at least a dozen flights from methanol IC motors works for him, so it can't be that bad.

[Nigel Dell]

I seem to remember, maybe badly, the reason for doing the nose up test was control line models to ensure the engine went from ‘4 stroking’ to ‘2 stroking’ as the term used at the time basically checking the engine would lean out in a climb.

[Declan]

Lol, thanks for the replies.  In true forum fashion there's lots of differing advice although safety is a consistent theme.  I think I'll set up the engine when it arrives on a test stand to run it in and see if I can start it manually priming it with the exhaust outlet blocked.  I can see the fuel lines clearly and I'll know if it's priming or not.  If I cannot do it manually I'll invest in a starter.  I'm not against the idea of one but I've always felt that using one was more dangerous than the stick.  You have to control the starter and watch the wires and the prop.  A stick in your hand is fairly easy to manage IMO, the wooden spoon being a great idea!  Ultimately the prop is very dangerous once it's been started by either method.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

No wires with my starter option and a lipo,,,

[Ron Gray]

6 hours ago, EvilC57 said:

If this is now considered to be incorrect, maybe it should be removed from future editions of the Handbook

I’m in agreement that it should be removed, it’s a hangover from days gone by when that was the ‘norm’. Times have moved on and so has understanding (well for some it has).

[Bucksboy]

No wires on this style, but I accept that they are not cheap if you buy brand new.

[Learner]

6 minutes ago, Bucksboy said:

No wires on this style, but I accept that they are not cheap if you buy brand new.

Brilliant little starter had mine years.

Biggest engine I started was 35cc petrol.

Nice and light just uses a 3s 2200 lipo

[CorradoMatt]

7 hours ago, Jon H said:

 

too true. 

 

 

with the greatest respect to the BMFA, they arent engine manufacturers and as with most people who write articles, run shops, make youtube videos they are enthusiasts working from their own experience without specific technical training or expertise in a given area. As i know myself, they probably also know that anyone who dares to question the old ways is immediately persona non grata. Consequently there tends to be an industry trend towards telling the people what they want to hear as most are impossible to educate. 

 

in any case, the nose up test is utterly pointless at best and downright dangerous at worst. 

I can't see how the nose up test is "utterly pointless" and i would be interested to understand your reasoning why?

 

A good example of why the nose up test is a useful procedure is with my Cambria Hein funfighter. Im not one to constantly tune engines and once they are set, they shouldn't require more than a couple of clicks on the needle. I've always done the nose up test at full throttle as i was shown in the 1990s when i was new to the hobby. On one occasion when starting the os 32sx in my Hein, i did the usual nose up test and after a couple of seconds the engine died. I eventually realised that the clunk had folded forwards and was starving the engine when held nose up. A good shake of the model released the clunk and all was good again. If i hadn't done the nose up test, the engine would have cut soon after launch.

[Ron Gray]

Despite all of my fuel tank installations set so that the clunks cannot fold back on themselves I always give a model a good shake before filling with fuel. The nose up test was thought to be the best way to check fuel mixture, good ground tuning obviates that dangerous practice.

[John Stainforth]

23 hours ago, Jon H said:

If hand starting go the b&q and buy a broom handle. Chop off 12-14 inches, and save the rest for future use. 

 

As has already been stated, priming can be done with a finger over the exhaust (wont work on a laser!) and i use this method to hand start the saito 45 in my flair nieuport. I am helped out by the engine being inverted, so the fuel charge 'falls' into the cylinder, but it should work with a side mount as well. 

 

To be honest though, as i posted in the other thread my choice for a cowled scale model would always be a starter with a lipo. I use the big boy 6.5:1 geared job from JE with a 6s lipo on it. This laughs at my 60cc 4 stroke twins and gives me no trouble beyond the occasional switch welding problem already mentioned. 

 

As your 95v is not the biggest of engines the smaller geared starter from JE with a 3s lipo or even a bog stock 12v lead acid would do the job fine. If you are tired of a heavy lead acid, get a small nimh pack instead. I swapped my flight box over to a 3000ish mah nimh and its plenty for the fuel pump and a handful of starts. Its useless on a big motor , but i have used it on my laser 80 without issue. 

For a chicken stick, another cheap option is a plastic toilet cleaning brush with a straight shaft, with the brush part cut off. For four strokes, I generally use an electric starter, but with  a small amount of priming (one or two turns) using Martin's method, being very careful not to flood the engine.