Electric Cars.

[Learner]

1 hour ago, Ron Gray said:

and 6x the fun / pleasure

Your easily pleased, 6x the  pleasure with a rear wiper!

My trafic had 2 I should've been ecstatic.

[john davidson 1]

22 hours ago, IDD15 said:

@Learner The best I can offer is that at last the used EV market is beginning to warm up

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/05/used-car-market-hits-five-year-high-as-evs-reach-record-share/
 

However as these figures come from the SMMT they could be suspect…🙄

 

I also follow this channel on YouTube and it seems there can be bargains to be had,

 

Not a guru - EV bargains under 15K

 

hth 

idd

not a guru----Inteesting link quoting 3 to 4 year old Evs at one third of new price. Also comment re lots of cars coming to end of lease, so could be a realistic buy for a private owner

 

On the theme of tax on EVs, government must be thinking about road pricing given satellite  tech.  Just wonder how easy it would be to evade although lots fo cars seem to be not taxed on the present system.

[Engine Doctor]

8 hours ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

They forced change on millions via smokeless fuels, were they wrong and did the less well off have much of a say in the matter ?

I can't afford the EV route as prices for used are at present, so what's new ?

Come on John . How on earth can you compare IC  V  EV to  old coal fires V smokless fuels ? Did you actually experience a pea-souper fogs back in the 1950's ? I did and remember it stinging my throat and eyes and not being able to see more than a foot or so perhsos two feet in the day time. The less well off didnt have a say but when thousands died in London over a two week depression with little or no wind then it was a benefit to all. 

Even if you could afford a used EV think long and hard as you will more than likely be buying a depleted battery and we all know that replacing a EV battery will usually cost more than the car is worth. Then think about repairing an EV. Even a minor knock will mean battery replacement under present advice and hence higher insurance premiums. 

EV are great to drive if you have the range but to me the cons far outweigh the pro's.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

37 minutes ago, Engine Doctor said:

Come on John . How on earth can you compare IC  V  EV to  old coal fires V smokless fuels ? Did you actually experience a pea-souper fogs back in the 1950's ? I did and remember it stinging my throat and eyes and not being able to see more than a foot or so perhsos two feet in the day time. The less well off didnt have a say but when thousands died in London over a two week depression with little or no wind then it was a benefit to all. 

Even if you could afford a used EV think long and hard as you will more than likely be buying a depleted battery and we all know that replacing a EV battery will usually cost more than the car is worth. Then think about repairing an EV. Even a minor knock will mean battery replacement under present advice and hence higher insurance premiums. 

EV are great to drive if you have the range but to me the cons far outweigh the pro's.

 

For me some are knocking for the sake of it, and clutching at any possible issue to dismiss.

We went smokeless for much the same reasons EV is now a thing, to clean up our act. Seems a fair comment to me.

Pea soupers ? Grew up in a pit village surrounded with heavy industry, lost Mother/Father/Sister to lung disease, yep got the tea shirt.

Only question for me is " Do you believe we need to clean up our act" ?

 

[Frank Skilbeck]

Insurance premiums isn't across the board but is related to some manufactures who don't have proper repair standards in place or good parts support, so cars are off the road for long periods waiting on parts and insurance companies are forking out for the hire cars. If you look at models from established manufacturers e.g. Mini, Vauxhall with ICE and EV versions of the same model then insurance premiums are essentially the same between equivalent models. Bit like saying all 4x4 insurance is expensive based on the easy to steal Range Rovers. It's dead easy to check just go on autotrader and pick the reg numbers of similar EV/ICE cars and put them in a comparison website and see the quotes, much too difficult for journalists I know. 

 

As for batteries I've watched youtube channels where repair shops have bought ICE cars scrapped because they drove through a flood and damaged the engine, too expensive for the insurance company to repair with a "new" engine, but repair shop uses a salvaged engine (or re-built), guess what replace batteries are available from salvage yards. As for depleted you can get a state of health report on a battery, can you get that for a turbo waste gate, EGR, cam belt etc etc. But so far, apart from early cars with a poor battery management system (Nissan Leaf) batteries are proving to be quite resilient, probably better than some ICE engines.

[Tim Kearsley]

I'm afraid the battery depletion bit is just another piece of FUD from the anti-electric car brigade.  There are Tesla taxis in the US which have done 500,000 miles on one battery.

[Jim Hearnden 1]

24 minutes ago, Tim Kearsley said:

I'm afraid the battery depletion bit is just another piece of FUD from the anti-electric car brigade.  There are Tesla taxis in the US which have done 500,000 miles on one battery.

And Prius and Insights

[Erfolg]

The present situation where EVs are not paying the appropriate or comparative road fund duty as IC cars is an indicator that the sales of Evs is lower by a sufficient margin that the present Government envisaged at the present time.

 

For UK car manufacturers this matters, as production volumes and the proportion of types of vehicles matter, due to the levies that they presently are expected to pay. The consequences to the UK are potentially enormous, companies are not hinting, production is presently moving to non UK plants. The so what, is really does mean jobs will be lost, many suppliers will cease operations in the UK, investment will not be made in the UK, taxes will not be paid (by the manufacturers and employees).

 

Although many overseas government officials tell us how committed they are to the EV and the environment, their actions do not match the talk.

 

At present EVs are being scrapped by insurance companies, the premiums for EVs reflect this situation. Is it right that they are being scrapped,, until it can be shown that there is no risk, or repairs can be regularly and safely undertaken, that is the real world of pragmatism.

 

It is not anti EVs to recognise that the increased weight (that is considerable), has many detrimental consequences, from tyre wear, road damage, to more than desirable energy use, increased tyre particulate. We all can argue to the cows come home as to how many saints  can stand on a pin head, and try to suggest something does not matter.

 

Those who suggest that IC vehicles are subsidising EVs have a point, What is presently true, that EVs or tax payers will have to fund the +£100 Bn, (that is over, above and beyond the cost of repairing and building roads) that IC vehicles pay at present .

 

AS many others I am not anti EVs, I see many issues that the government and others are in denial with.

 

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

No one going down the optional IC fuel road, Ie, methanol, biomass, chip fat etc, that would be a cheap eco fix.

[Don Fry]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

No one going down the optional IC fuel road, Ie, methanol, biomass, chip fat etc, that would be a cheap eco fix.

As the boss of that Irish rubbish customer service airline correctly stated, not enough chip fat in the world to keep aircraft flying. He wanted all this green crap to go away, but tat point he got right. Measures that come under the term green-washing. 

[Outrunner]

3 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

No one going down the optional IC fuel road, Ie, methanol, biomass, chip fat etc, that would be a cheap eco fix.

As Don says not enough chip fat. You could dig up more rainforest to plant more stuff to make chip fat though 😅

Not very green after you've burnt it to run your ic engine though.

[Zflyer]

I dont think governments are in denial, i think theyhave worked out the costs in the medium to long term. The public however and wherever they sit on carbon zero are not able to get honest figures. Not just about the weaning off of carbon fuel, and it has to be a weaning, but also the true cost. No one is prepared to accept compromise. 

[Don Fry]

33 minutes ago, Zflyer said:

I dont think governments are in denial, i think theyhave worked out the costs in the medium to long term. The public however and wherever they sit on carbon zero are not able to get honest figures. Not just about the weaning off of carbon fuel, and it has to be a weaning, but also the true cost. No one is prepared to accept compromise. 

I would disagree mate. The costs of sorting this future mess are less the sooner started, so the scientific world tells us (pause for denial from lobbyists of the fuel industry). Moreover their estimates increase with time, so it gets even cheaper to get started. All governments get the figures.
But, it’s a brave government commits to and executes those up front costs, to save future governments from having to pay more. 
Thats not counting freeloading counties, looking for a short term advantage.

 

woke a memory, people used to convert chip oil to something that ran a petrol engine (probably pre emmision times, without expensive emmision systems to damage) A flying mate did it. Follow his van and you and your car stank of old chip fat oil. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

44 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

people used to convert chip oil to something that ran a petrol engine

Old direct injection diesels, a couple of people I know do it, you can smell the chips when you are stuck behind them.

 

 It's still a drop in the ocean against what is burned ( full of sulphur ) in ships and air transport.

Edited June 2 by Paul De Tourtoulon

[Shaun Walsh]

2 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Old direct injection diesels, a couple of people I know do it, you can smell the chips when you are stuck behind them.

Modern biodiesel is made by transesterification of vegetable oils using Methanol to give Fatty Acid Methyl Esters which have similar viscosity, flash point and auto ignition temperature characteristics to diesel oil.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

14 hours ago, Erfolg said:

The present situation where EVs are not paying the appropriate or comparative road fund duty as IC cars is an indicator that the sales of Evs is lower by a sufficient margin that the present Government envisaged at the present time.

 

For UK car manufacturers this matters, as production volumes and the proportion of types of vehicles matter, due to the levies that they presently are expected to pay. The consequences to the UK are potentially enormous, companies are not hinting, production is presently moving to non UK plants. The so what, is really does mean jobs will be lost, many suppliers will cease operations in the UK, investment will not be made in the UK, taxes will not be paid (by the manufacturers and employees).

 

Although many overseas government officials tell us how committed they are to the EV and the environment, their actions do not match the talk.

 

At present EVs are being scrapped by insurance companies, the premiums for EVs reflect this situation. Is it right that they are being scrapped,, until it can be shown that there is no risk, or repairs can be regularly and safely undertaken, that is the real world of pragmatism.

 

It is not anti EVs to recognise that the increased weight (that is considerable), has many detrimental consequences, from tyre wear, road damage, to more than desirable energy use, increased tyre particulate. We all can argue to the cows come home as to how many saints  can stand on a pin head, and try to suggest something does not matter.

 

Those who suggest that IC vehicles are subsidising EVs have a point, What is presently true, that EVs or tax payers will have to fund the +£100 Bn, (that is over, above and beyond the cost of repairing and building roads) that IC vehicles pay at present .

 

AS many others I am not anti EVs, I see many issues that the government and others are in denial with.

 

 

 

Present sales are no indicator of anything other than reality, IF there is a slowdown it's entirely predictable, and was always inevitable, enthuastic buyers already bought, people waiting on an EV that suits their needs, economic climate. Not paying the "appropriate taxes " insentive, been used time after time, not much to see here.

 

2nd 3rd would need to talk politics, then I'll have to mod myself n don't want banning.

 

Scrappage is much more common nowadays, among I.C as well, going forward design may improve on E.V and lessen this, if not it'll become a fact of life and people will deal with it.

 

It is anti EV to keep throwing weight into the discussion (IMO) cars have gotten much bigger/heavier, long before EV became a thing, as the state of the  roads shows, see little comment re heavy I.C.

 

Tyre wear ? See above, selective negative commenting.

 

EV and taxes again ? No great fuss when diesel got a good deal over petrol, reason "They're more environmentally friendly" pass the pinch of salt please.

 

Target dates to be met ? No chance, but that's par for the course and leaders have to paint a pretty picture to drive change forward.

 

Me ? I.C driver, petrol, hoping to see his life out and still be able to drive, my choices are limited.

[Don Fry]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Old direct injection diesels, a couple of people I know do it, you can smell the chips when you are stuck behind them.

 

 It's still a drop in the ocean against what is burned ( full of sulphur ) in ships and air transport.

Totally agree, so tax the carbon burnt, tax off some where else so it’s tax neutral. Then it’s revolution time, people getting taxed for damage caused. God forbid, the Lear jet isn’t affordable, and my poor neibour can’t afford a holiday to Thailand, and my little angels can’t go to Florida to kick Micky in the nether regions.

[Zflyer]

Don, you say you disagree but accept that costs are known. It doesnt matter whether its cheaper to do it now ornot. The issue is none are brave enough. And there are those of the population, regardless of the'greater good' will be reluctant to help in making transition. EV 's are are prominent and visible solution but only are small part. Jeremy Vine may have his bike but Taylor Swift has a couple of private jets. Try telling her fans to sray at hime and watch her on the tv.

Like John i have an i.c. and am getting on. I wont be changing it,but my legs and bike are getting mire exercise

[IDD15]

Gridserve have launched their new phone app. It has one or two extra bells & whistles but crucially there is a 20% discount applied if you charge via the app. The offer applies until midnight on the 30th September. 
 

I’m a bit anti app were charging is concerned, but hey for 20% discount I’ll give it a punt! 😜

 

HTH

idd

[Erfolg]

I continue to find it difficult to understand how those who have reservations with respect to electric power, as the situation is today are considered to anti electric. In most cases they are simply stating facts as they see them.

 

The first is that  unit cost of electricity today is approximately twice of gas. With respect to oil fuel, without various taxes, the situation is worse.

 

An increased use of electricity, requires  greater generation capacity, along with a significant re-enforced distribution system. The cost of developing the grid will be massive, some estimates suggest that these costs will dwarf those of generation.

 

Then the fact that the wind is unpredictable, this means that some other form of generation will be required  to fill the variability. Nuclear power is better suited to base load generation. It is not great at ramping up and down fast. Many ideas put forward are fixes, rather than viable predictable low cost solutions.

 

With respect to EVs, for vehicle type/class they are measurably heavier than their IC equivalent. Increased tyre wear is not a figment of the imagination. The extra cost at present is a real issue for many. Without tax advantages for business an various subsidies, many are dissuaded from first time purchase.

 

To many are upset that provided on street charging comes at high costs. Some think that the cost should be capped, yet demand that more is made available. Without subsidies this reflects true commercial cost.

 

At some point the revenue presently paid by IC cars have to be recouped. It would be unfair to expect all tax payers to fill the gap. It would not be unreasonable to look at EVs to pay. It seems that the London road charges will be extended to EVs next year.

 

It seems that many jobs in the UK auto industry will go, as things stand.

 

Like it or not, Oil will be required for many years, for lubricants, polymers, and for other uses that do come to mind immediately.

 

The social consequences will almost certainly make the collapse of the coal and steel ( both in the UK an Europe)industry seem minor.

 

 

 

 

[ken anderson.]

when visiting Malta there was a couple of cruise ships in the Harbour...it was mentioned that one of them standing berthed was throwing out more nasty stuff than the total residents of the island...and they get different ships most days of the week.....and recently i read on one of the Maltese news sites that there was 18k cars for each sq kilometre of the island.

 

ken Andersonne..1...Malta dept.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

28 minutes ago, ken anderson. said:

when visiting Malta there was a couple of cruise ships in the Harbour...it was mentioned that one of them standing berthed was throwing out more nasty stuff than the total residents of the island...and they get different ships most days of the week.....and recently i read on one of the Maltese news sites that there was 18k cars for each sq kilometre of the island.

 

ken Andersonne..1...Malta dept.

Easy, tax them and planes that use more untaxed fuel in one hour than I do in 10 years of driving a Diesel that has a super tax on it.

And then tax the holidaymakers that fly halfway around the world for a week in the sun.

[Don Fry]

48 minutes ago, ken anderson. said:

when visiting Malta there was a couple of cruise ships in the Harbour...it was mentioned that one of them standing berthed was throwing out more nasty stuff than the total residents of the island...and they get different ships most days of the week.....and recently i read on one of the Maltese news sites that there was 18k cars for each sq kilometre of the island.

 

ken Andersonne..1...Malta dept.

Who fed you those numbers Ken had dubious math skills. Assuming average size cars, that’s about 12% of the whole area of the island covered by cars. UK has about 25 cars per square kilometer

[Erfolg]

As Majorca found, taxing just stops the ships visiting. Taxing for the sake of taxing, ultimately results in things not happening, no wonder that some Governments run out of money, taxing for dubious reasons ends up with us going back in time, at the ultimate even armies and civilisation fails.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

13 hours ago, Erfolg said:

With respect to EVs, for vehicle type/class they are measurably heavier than their IC equivalent. Increased tyre wear is not a figment of the imagination.

 

 

While the design of many EVs have been biased towards the heavier style of vehicle, I would question this statement.  I replaced an Astra diesel estate with a similarly sized MG5.  The kerb weights are almost identical.  The current petrol engined Vauxhall Astra estate is considerably heavier than either!  I haven't done enough miles to notice any significant tyre wear but I do accept that the available torque could strip the tread off the front tyres very quickly with lack of restraint!  But that's not a direct consequence of the power source - and this from someone who couldn't get 8000 miles out of a pair of Avon ZZs on the Astra.