Dickw Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, kc said: Nobody seems to have explained why they like electronic handbrakes rather than the good old fashioned handbrake lever! Surely a handbrake lever that does not need electric power must be a safety feature? With the extra advantage that the manual handbrake can be applied gently or fully according to circumstances. If I put a manual handbrake on my wife sometimes cannot release it. My wife is fairly short and therefore has the seat well forward, so a manual handbrake lever is often slightly behind her and difficult to use. An electric handbrake solves both problems - brilliant. I have had manual handbrake cables fail in the past, so don't try to tell me they are more reliable. Dick 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D 8 - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Some time soon people who have learned to drive in driver assist vehicles may/will not be allowed to drive older types without the aide's, like learning on automatic transmission cars. I can still do a steep hill start without using the hand brake, and no I do not roll back any.😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bradly Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, kc said: Nobody seems to have explained why they like electronic handbrakes rather than the good old fashioned handbrake lever! Surely a handbrake lever that does not need electric power must be a safety feature? With the extra advantage that the manual handbrake can be applied gently or fully according to circumstances. I love this feature. Why? Because I'm lazy. (And honest). I don't have to touch the thing: I stop, the car puts it on automatically. I drive off, the car takes it off automatically. What's not to like? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 I have mixed feelings on these. My current car has a facility to apply the handbrake when I come to a stop which, I have to admit, is very useful in a lazy sort of way. However, my previous car had a standard electric one which I didn’t like and I came very close to disaster with it. I was on the way to the flying field and after a few hundred yards had a sudden premonition that I might have left my transmitter in the front garden while loading up. I couldn’t see it from the driver’s seat but was on a hill with a blind summit, so carried on and pulled up at the top of it to check. I left the car ticking over for a swift check through the tailgate. After getting out of the car, I started walking to the back and realised the car was starting to move backwards. I tried to hold it but couldn’t stop it gathering speed. At this point, I realised that I had only one chance to stop it careering down the hill and onto the roundabout at the bottom and made a grab for the door. I got one foot inside but the door swept me off my feet and with my bottom on the road, I made a desperate grab for the B pillar and somehow wrenched myself up and into the driver’s seat. Adrenaline gives you even more wings than Red Bull! The cause? I believe either a sticky clutch pedal or a slight unnoticed knock on the throttle pedal had activated hill stat assist which releases the brake after a few seconds. And yes, I shouldn’t have left the engine running but we don’t always follow best practices… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 30 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said: I have mixed feelings on these. My current car has a facility to apply the handbrake when I come to a stop which, I have to admit, is very useful in a lazy sort of way. However, my previous car had a standard electric one which I didn’t like and I came very close to disaster with it. I was on the way to the flying field and after a few hundred yards had a sudden premonition that I might have left my transmitter in the front garden while loading up. I couldn’t see it from the driver’s seat but was on a hill with a blind summit, so carried on and pulled up at the top of it to check. I left the car ticking over for a swift check through the tailgate. After getting out of the car, I started walking to the back and realised the car was starting to move backwards. I tried to hold it but couldn’t stop it gathering speed. At this point, I realised that I had only one chance to stop it careering down the hill and onto the roundabout at the bottom and made a grab for the door. I got one foot inside but the door swept me off my feet and with my bottom on the road, I made a desperate grab for the B pillar and somehow wrenched myself up and into the driver’s seat. Adrenaline gives you even more wings than Red Bull! The cause? I believe either a sticky clutch pedal or a slight unnoticed knock on the throttle pedal had activated hill stat assist which releases the brake after a few seconds. And yes, I shouldn’t have left the engine running but we don’t always follow best practices… That sounds horrendous and must have been terrifying. People have been killed by automatic cars pushing them into an obstruction. It's not only cars that hi-tech is taking over. One of the big improvement to pedal cycles is in the gearing. I started out with non-indexed downtube shifters which have the advantage of being uncritical as to mixing components. However indexed gearing has big advantages. Our tandem has a 9 speed cassette at the back and a triple chainset at the front. Changing to the middle ring often means changing up a sprocket at the back for a comfortable gear - the gear change is so good, both can be done at once. Things are getting silly, though with electronic wireless shifting that's used on the most expensive bikes as used by prop road racers. The cable changers work well on our tandem, even with the long cables needed when there's room for two. Why change a simple, easily maintained length of bowden cable for an expensive (and potentially difficult to repair) piece of electronics? I feel the same about car handbrakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 31 minutes ago, Geoff S said: That sounds horrendous and must have been terrifying. People have been killed by automatic cars pushing them into an obstruction. It all happened too quickly to give me time for fear. The aftermath was a feeling of profound relief! It was gravity providing the pushing (or more properly pulling) rather than engine power though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 hours ago, Dickw said: If I put a manual handbrake on my wife sometimes cannot release it. My wife is fairly short and therefore has the seat well forward, so a manual handbrake lever is often slightly behind her and difficult to use. An electric handbrake solves both problems - brilliant. I have had manual handbrake cables fail in the past, so don't try to tell me they are more reliable. Dick I can see the point about short people but my wife is short and has the seat right forward but she still can reach the manual handbrake. Of course we checked she could fit the car before we bought. ( we rejected the Prius as the steering column bulge wouldn't allow my wife to drive as it hit her knees with the seat right forward ) A handbrake cable would surely be checked at an MOT so shouldn't fail, but can the MOT tester check the electronics and be sure they will last the year? Must be safer to have a cable brake that is completely separate from hydraulics and electronics. As for running back on a hill my Toyota Auris Hybrid Auto with manual handbrake doesn't roll back without using handbrake on most hills. I would have paid MORE money to NOT have a keyless ignition on my Auris! Same with electronic handbrake if I bought another car - it's worth more without especially when it gets a few years old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 3 hours ago, kc said: With the extra advantage that the manual handbrake can be applied gently or fully according to circumstances. Had a courtesy latest version Cashcow a month or so back for a few days, it had a choice of 2 brake switches. I didn't try it to compare but according to the manual the extra switch was "softer" than the normal one but there was a warning not to use it as a parking brake. I wasn't really interested in it so didn't pursue the reson or circumstances when it might be useful. Although I was sceptical at first I'm perfectly happy that the brake arrangment in my car is an improvement over the traditional type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 I'm a bit out of touch with the workings of modern cars. But I suspect the electronic switch actuates something mechanical or hydraulic to put the brake on/off. If thats the case doubling the possibility of something going wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futura57 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 I'm not looking forward to replacing my 2005 Honda Civic. Every year I expect it to fail the MOT in some expensive way, but it continues to give me cheap motoring. And I'm doing my bit not to rape the planet of extra resources, when the norm seems to be to buy a new car every 3 or 5 years. But buying a new fangled car fills me with dread. I feel I would need to train like an airline pilot to understand all the 'safety' features on board. I hope it doesn't have MCAS. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 15 minutes ago, Futura57 said: I hope it doesn't have MCAS. What's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 A system that helps airliners crash…allegedly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Ahh, something like an in car entertainment system then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futura57 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuvering_Characteristics_Augmentation_System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john davidson 1 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, Learner said: I'm a bit out of touch with the workings of modern cars. But I suspect the electronic switch actuates something mechanical or hydraulic to put the brake on/off. If thats the case doubling the possibility of something going wrong. Applies servo pressure to all four brakes, you can feel it on the brake pedal taking over and slightly depressing it. Just crossed my mind that I learned 60 years ago o double declutch AND heel and toe at the same time, like patting your head and rubbing your tum at the same time. Car tests of that time often made mention if the brake and throttle pedal relationships allowed heel and toe. Allowed steep hill starts if the handbrake was weak, which it often was! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 15 minutes ago, john davidson 1 said: Applies servo pressure to all four brakes, you can feel it on the brake pedal taking over and slightly depressing it. Just crossed my mind that I learned 60 years ago o double declutch AND heel and toe at the same time, like patting your head and rubbing your tum at the same time. Car tests of that time often made mention if the brake and throttle pedal relationships allowed heel and toe. Allowed steep hill starts if the handbrake was weak, which it often was! Does that mean the caliper seals are under pressure all the time the handbrake is on? What happens when the engines stopped and servos not working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 People who understand these techy things told me that my citroen 2CV was an extremely sophisticated bit of kit. It had several features. a pedal that when you pressed it made it go faster, and another that slowed it up Happy daze ernie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Learner said: Does that mean the caliper seals are under pressure all the time the handbrake is on? What happens when the engines stopped and servos not working? No, an electric motor does the job, you can hear it whirring. Probably a worm gear. Edited July 23 by Paul De Tourtoulon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 I’m not sure about it acting on all four wheels - my older car had an electric actuator where the handbrake was located and operated via a conventional cable. A friend’s VW had electric actuators built in to the rear brake calipers - which he found very expensive when one failed! My MG does allow the brake pedal to operate slightly when the parking brake is applied but I’ve put it down to the pad displacement - although I’ve not investigated it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Walby Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Manual handbrake, what's that for? I have an automatic car that disengages the handbrake automatically when I pull away and reapplies it once park is selected. When I worked everyone who drove on company business had to pass a driving assessment, one point that was made was that you should NEVER stop an apply the handbrake (while on route) and that at any junction the brake pedal should be applied (optional to take it out of gear). The reason was that if you were rear ended it would lessen the likelihood of hitting the car in front. The point was reinforced by my late wife when we headed back to her native Northumberland and carrying out various right turns on the A1 (Great North Road, single carriage way). Check behind, indicate and move into the hatched right turn area, stop and wait for a gap in the opposing traffic with your foot applying full brake pressure and wheels straight ahead. When a gap appears, check off side mirror and then carry out the right turn. The number of serious injuries and fatalities by cars pulling out to overtake with cars stationary/turning right is quite high. The consequence of being hit from behind by a car at 60mph is bad enough, but when it then takes you into the oncoming traffic (possibly a HGV) it not worth thinking about. And yes the rear view check has saved me a number of times as the overtaking car realises that I am not overtaking, but turning right...HGV passes on the nearside, idiot passes on the right and oncoming car with lights/horn blaring. Would driver less cars really be that reckless? On the subject of stop/start, like it or not I can't see reliability being an issue as manufacturers put bigger batteries to cope so I would assume they beef up the starter etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D 8 - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Pulled up behind a VW Golf at a junction, had his foot on the brake and nice bright brake lights [full daylight] It was only when he took foot off brake I saw he was indicating right Silly little indicator in the middle of the red cluster. Poor design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Worse was the police car coming up the road towards me on full blues and twos. Nothing for me to do as the road was clear. It was only as I got close to him and saw his front dipping under braking that I could see his right indicator flashing next to and in time with his headlights on flashing main beam as I passed the side turning he wanted to go down. We exchanged glances with me trying to explain graphically about this design fault - and no, I didn’t contact them as I thought it might open a can of worms if I reported it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottenRow Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, john davidson 1 said: Applies servo pressure to all four brakes, you can feel it on the brake pedal taking over and slightly depressing it The handbrake (parking brake to give it its correct terminology) has to operate by a different means to the main braking system (that is in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations), so I don’t think it will apply the main brakes via the servo. More likely, the slight depression of the brake pedal is due to the brake pads in the wheels on which the parking brake operates being moved onto the discs, which will allow the pedal to drop slightly if a foot is resting on it. An ex-boss used to take part in rally driving in the ‘80s, and to get a good handbrake action the rear brakes had their hydraulic circuit connected to a second master cylinder that was operated by the handbrake lever. This made it much easier to lock the rear wheels for handbrake turns. Because the cars had to be road legal for travelling between rally stages, the mechanical handbrake cable still had to be fitted too. Brian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D 8 - Moderator Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 On a car I looked at the electric hand brake servo still just pulled a couple of cables. we were looking because there was a rasping noise. Turned out the plastic gears in the servo had stripped some teeth. Now where have I seen that before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bradly Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 VAuto dipping headlights. Second best thing ever. Why? 1. I'm human. I forget. I miss switching correctly from time to time. I'm also lazy. So its one less thing i have to do in life. 2. Because I'm human, and not 100.00% reliable at all hours of every day, as opposed to the camera smarts (or whatever it is that my vehicle is using) that doesnt get tired, doesnt have off days, doesnt "just forget", other drivers are not blinded by my faults. Therefore this has to be a win for the tech, because the other road users are the principal benefactors, not me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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