Who "builds" ARTF models ?

[Solly]

One of the negative aspects of the now predominant ARTF movement is the gradual decline of the performance of the UK team in international scale competitions. I can remember when we consistently were placed in the top positions on the European and World model stage, with superb models which were designed and built by the competitors themselves. The modelling magazines have a lot to answer for here, for years now any newcomer to the hobby has been steered towards an ARTF model using electric power, the reasoning being that it’s better to have them flying than not. The result is that there are very few, if any, young scale modellers available for international flying. Look at the results in the last few world comps. Also look at the dismal magazine coverage compared with the in-depth analysis we used to see years ago.

[Peter Jenkins]

Solly, it's not just scale competitions that have taken s hit.  It is any competition.  Remember that you need a B Cert to fly in competition.  About 5 years ago only 18% of BMFA members held a B.  So, that tells you something.  Plus, you need to travel to go to competitions and people are finding it increasingly expensive to travel not to mention the time and mkney it takes to buy the raw materials to build world class models.  In aerobatics, very few competitors build their own models these days.  The majority use ARTFs and electric power.  The focus is on the flying and there is no "BOM" rule any more.  

Even in scale, there has been concern at the highest level on whether the BOM really did build the model.

[PatMc]

16 minutes ago, Solly said:

One of the negative aspects of the now predominant ARTF movement is the gradual decline of the performance of the UK team in international scale competitions. I can remember when we consistently were placed in the top positions on the European and World model stage, with superb models which were designed and built by the competitors themselves. The modelling magazines have a lot to answer for here, for years now any newcomer to the hobby has been steered towards an ARTF model using electric power, the reasoning being that it’s better to have them flying than not. The result is that there are very few, if any, young scale modellers available for international flying. Look at the results in the last few world comps. Also look at the dismal magazine coverage compared with the in-depth analysis we used to see years ago.

Solly, surely ARTF has the same impact on every other country's international scale team. 

 

 

[leccyflyer]

In my experience the vast majority of modellers have precisely zero interest in competition. If you read the BMFA News you might get the impression that modellers are all competing like mad, but they are not. They are just enjoying their hobby.

[Nick Somerville]

Interesting discussion. Today I attended my first ever BMFA scale flying league competition. Hosted by a most welcoming club based at RNAS Merryfield. I didn’t know what to expect but was disappointed that it turned out that I was one of only four entries on the day.  Have to feel for the judges who had made the effort to be there.  Thanks guys. The forecast had been very gloomy leading up to today,  so maybe that had an impact.  

Of the four models flying there was, an FMS foamie Tigercat,  a Hangar 9 RV Vans (recovered for scale), a Top RC Zero (nicely weathered)  all 3 electric powered, plus my Laser engined plans built Sea Fury.

 

I had fun and learnt plenty from watching the three other very accomplished pilots, but really had hoped to meet some other builders with their models to share a common interest. There is another event coming up towards the end of May, so let’s see what that brings. In the meantime I need to sort some technical issues with my engine (2 deadsticks on tarmac 😱) and keep practicing.

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Difficult as it is to accept that something you have a passion for isn't attractive to others, that's pretty much what it is. Model flying is a business for the mags, so the more they attract into the hobby the more chance they have of selling the mag then selling advertising space. Those within the hobby are up for grabs, If what you do is attractive enough and you use the various means to publicise yourselves you may get new competitors, if not ? Then maybe the answers closer to home.

[Geoff S]

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

In my experience the vast majority of modellers have precisely zero interest in competition. If you read the BMFA News you might get the impression that modellers are all competing like mad, but they are not. They are just enjoying their hobby.

 

Over the years I've had a variety of hobbies (motor cycles, sailing, cycling and, now, aeromodelling). I competed at some level in all of them except aeromodelling and I have no interest in doing so.  I don't have any talent anyway :).

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

4 hours ago, Jake Bullit said:

It's rather be flying than building.

I’d rather be flying a model I’ve built!

[Graff]

12 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

I hope that you have changed the strut fixations in the wings,,,,

Why? Sure, it'll take a few moments to screw them in place, but they'll do the job, or?

[Peter Jenkins]

1 hour ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

I’d rather be flying a model I’ve built!

From scratch, your own design, a kit with everything laser cut, an ARTF that has no instructions on how to put it together.

 

What does built mean?

[Simon Chaddock]

I have a similar issue with classification of "foamies".

On most websites it refers to ARTF/RTF but moulded out of foam but what if you build a plane using thin foam sheet as the starting point?

In many cases the construction process is quite as involved as the balsa equivalent but it does involve some different skills and techniques. Not least of which it is likely to be quite a bit lighter.

 

Nothing wrong with ARTF/RTF. Many create a plane that would take considerable skill and time to emulate. The manufacturers certainly seem to consider them a commercial proposition.

 

Its just I like the process of designing, building and sheet foam is relatively cheap!  

 

 

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

2 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

From scratch, your own design, a kit with everything laser cut, an ARTF that has no instructions on how to put it together.

 

What does built mean?

I think it’s fairly clear that “built” means whatever you feel qualifies for the term.  In answer to your first questions, the answer to all of them is yes and I’ve done all of these (with the exception of the everything laser cut kit) more than a few times. 
 

As a fairly experienced builder, I may feel that a simple assembly job doesn’t justify the term “build” and I may choose not to use it but to a novice it may well be a daunting task which he looks back on with justifiable pride when it takes to the air. 

[SIMON CRAGG]

I got a lot of enjoyment out of building half a dozen foamboard models from the Flitetest stable, during lockdown.

 

Start with a couple of sheets of foamboard, a full size free plan and on line build instructions, and end up with something that flies really well.

 

Ok, they can look a bit "agricultural", but have a great fun factor, and I also learnt how vital a decent glue gun is!.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

8 hours ago, Graff said:

Why? Sure, it'll take a few moments to screw them in place, but they'll do the job, or?

I re made mine, if I remember, they had captive 3mm nuts that didn't stay in place when fitting the struts.

[David Davis 2]

11 hours ago, Geoff S said:

 

Over the years I've had a variety of hobbies (motor cycles, sailing, cycling and, now, aeromodelling). I competed at some level in all of them except aeromodelling and I have no interest in doing so.  I don't have any talent anyway :).

 

14 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

Solly, it's not just scale competitions that have taken s hit.  It is any competition.  Remember that you need a B Cert to fly in competition.  About 5 years ago only 18% of BMFA members held a B.  So, that tells you something.  Plus, you need to travel to go to competitions and people are finding it increasingly expensive to travel not to mention the time and mey it takes to buy the raw materials to build world class models.  In aerobatics, very few competitors build their own models these days.  The majority use ARTFs and electric power.  The focus is on the flying and there is no "BOM" rule any more.  

Even in scale, there has been concern at the highest level on whether the BOM really did build the model.

 

I am of exactly the same opinion Geoff! I'm a former road racer and trials rider too!

 

As for only 18% of us having a B Certificate my response is, "Why bother with the B Certificate?" Why bother with the stress of perfecting the schedule and swatting up on BMFA Safety Rules when you could be enjoying yourself flying your Junior 60 in lazy horizontal eights or putting your WOT 4 through imperfectly executed aerobatics. Furthermore I think that the BMFA did themselves no favours with that video of the bloke demonstrating the B Schedule with his electric powered patternship. He must have had close to £1000 tied up in that set-up. I would have been more impressed if he's used an old  WOT4 powered by an OS 46!

 

PS. I hold the French QPDD certificate which is widely seen as the equivalent of the B Certificate but they're not really comparable, it's mainly a safety thing and the flying element is much easier than that of the B Certificate. That said, the French A Certificate, the Brevet A, is much more difficult than the BMFA's A Certificate.

 

I'm pretty sure that I could fly the B Certificate schedule but I've never felt the need or desire to take the qualification.

[Piers Bowlan]

Building an ARTF? Yes, done a few of those. Bits that don’t always fit, occasionally structurally inadequate and supplied fittings that don’t cut the mustard, on occasion. Also, searching the internet to establish where the c of g should REALLY be! I have loved them all, even the turkeys as they provide their own challenges, which is what ‘building’ is all about. 😊

 

What I really want to know is what people mean by ‘scratch building’?

a) ‘I built it from a kit’.

b) ‘I built it from a plan’.

c) ‘I designed it myself’.

I consider c) as ‘scratch building’ whilst many think b) or even a) appropriate.

 

🤔

[Ace]

3 minutes ago, Piers Bowlan said:

What I really want to know is what people mean by ‘scratch building’?

a) ‘I built it from a kit’.

b) ‘I built it from a plan’.

c) ‘I designed it myself’.

I consider c) as ‘scratch building’

 

For me:

c) Starting from scratch ie. blank sheet of paper to a finished object. (Watered down meaning probably emanated from the US)

b) Built from a Plan - Slightly easier and can be difficult and time consuming so needs recognizing for just that.

a) Built from a kit - Still challenging but slightly easier again but recognized as an achievement.

    Laser cut parts particularly short kits fit somewhere between b & a.

ARTF for me will always be assembled. After  all you a piece of flat pack furniture is usually labeled "self assembly"

 

[PDB]

39 minutes ago, David Davis 2 said:

"Why bother with the B Certificate?" Why bother with the stress of perfecting the schedule and swatting up on BMFA Safety Rules when you could be enjoying yourself flying your Junior 60 in lazy horizontal eights or putting your WOT 4 through imperfectly executed aerobatics.

"what is food for one man may be bitter poison to others"🙂

 

For myself as a pilot of only 10 months who was signed off 8 weeks ago as safe to fly without an instructor I've been spending all available air time since practicing circuits, figure of 8's, dead sticks, landings, etc. in all conditions from flat calms to 20mph cross winds in preparation for my A test when an examiner becomes available. When I first looked at the A test 10 months ago I thought how on earth am I going to be able to do that, now I feel a great sense of achievement having got to the stage I am at now.

 

The learning process for me has been very enjoyable and I cannot wait to get started on my B test and have no intention of entering competitions. I've an interest in aerobatics and for me the B test will give me some structure towards this end and as for finding the learning stressful, for me it will be the opposite in fact and very fulfilling. 👍

 

For me the A and B test syllabuses have been excellent in giving me some structure and focus for my flying and making me a safer pilot.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

There are other threads where the merits of the BMFA achievement scheme have been discussed - let’s concentrate on the original topic please. 
 

Here’s one example

 

[Jake Bullit]

15 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

I’d rather be flying a model I’ve built!

Great if you have the spare time.

[David Davis 2]

I "assemble" an ARTF and "build" a model from a plan or a kit. I like the ability to choose my own colour schemes and I get a far greater sense of achievement and  satisfaction seeing my own efforts defying gravity than I do from flying an ARTF.

 

However, I would never discourage or even correct a beginner who refers to "building" his ARTF!

[Zflyer]

FWIW, I have attempted to build balsa planes, I presently have a fuselage sitting in the back bedroom, I dont think I get it right, something always seems to be slightly out of kilter. (please don't get asking about baseboards, set squares etc) On the occasion I have tried covering i seem to get more wrinkles than Old Mother Riley (gawd I'm old), and yes practise makes perfect but at what cost. I have made foamboard models one from scratch, also a hovercraft from scratch, used foam board as a skirt as well, and  made planes from Flite Test plans. I have to say those do fly well.

ARTF is certainly easier and 'bolt together' has its attractions.

Some have time to build, others do not, some are skilled some not so.

Each to their own is surely the way. 

I wanted to fly model aircraft and I can, whilst also admiring the attention to detail and craftsmanship which others clearly have.

I know that if i asked various club members they would readily assist in my construction skills, right now though I have enough to play with.

[kevin b]

Great response chaps. Thank you.

The object of the exercise was more about people than the models themselves.

There is a place in the hobby for all types of model and I can appreciate them all for what they are worth and the enjoyment they give.

I was more concerned as to why people who have assembled / bolted together / stuck a few loose parts on (obviously left off to release the manufacturers from any legal obligations)  feel it necessary to tell everybody that they have "built it" alluring to it being of their own creation.

I also wonder how many of these "builders" realise (or understand) the legal responsibilities of the "builder of the model". After all, if it wasn't for those (responsibilities) we would find that most of these "kits" would come in very large boxes with the instructions " fasten on the wing. Install the batteries and fly".

I appreciate that some already do, but they are accompanied with very carefully worded instructions stating the fact that it is the flier of the model who is at all times responsible for the performance of the aeroplane (airplane if you don't live in the U.K.).

[Ron Gray]

13 hours ago, kevin b said:

feel it necessary to tell everybody that they have "built it"

Definition of build, ‘to construct something by putting together parts or materials’. That’s why!

’Oh, you’re not a builder, you just assemble an ARTF’, definition of aero modelling snobbery.

[leccyflyer]

13 hours ago, kevin b said:

Great response chaps. Thank you.

The object of the exercise was more about people than the models themselves.

There is a place in the hobby for all types of model and I can appreciate them all for what they are worth and the enjoyment they give.

I was more concerned as to why people who have assembled / bolted together / stuck a few loose parts on (obviously left off to release the manufacturers from any legal obligations)  feel it necessary to tell everybody that they have "built it" alluring to it being of their own creation.

I also wonder how many of these "builders" realise (or understand) the legal responsibilities of the "builder of the model". After all, if it wasn't for those (responsibilities) we would find that most of these "kits" would come in very large boxes with the instructions " fasten on the wing. Install the batteries and fly".

I appreciate that some already do, but they are accompanied with very carefully worded instructions stating the fact that it is the flier of the model who is at all times responsible for the performance of the aeroplane (airplane if you don't live in the U.K.).

How on earth does that work?