Having trouble flying inverted

[paul devereux]

I've got a real mental block about flying inverted. Before I take off, I have it planned- just take the plane to one side, half-roll, then fly straight and level past me at about 20 feet, then half-roll again and climb away. But when it comes to do it, I panic and it all goes wrong. (Not wrong as in crashing, but wrong in aborting it too soon). Are there any tips, or should I just plough on practising so I get more confident generally?

[Ron Gray]

Take off, do 1 circuit then at the end of a pass climb as if doing a loop, at the top keep the model flying back along the same path but inverted. This will give you height to prevent you panicking. To come out of inverted either roll or (as long as you haven’t lost height) complete the loop. When inverted, assuming a fairly neutral CG, keep a little forward pressure on the elevator. Repeat until you have confidence.

 

20 ft off the deck for you first inverted attempts is too low!

[Learner]

7 minutes ago, paul devereux said:

I've got a real mental block about flying inverted. Before I take off, I have it planned- just take the plane to one side, half-roll, then fly straight and level past me at about 20 feet, then half-roll again and climb away. But when it comes to do it, I panic and it all goes wrong. (Not wrong as in crashing, but wrong in aborting it too soon). Are there any tips, or should I just plough on practising so I get more confident generally?

Practice higher up most mental blocks come through fear of crashing.

Low level inverted is quite advanced and something a lot of experienced flyers cant do.

[PDB]

35 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

assuming a fairly neutral CG

This helped me massively when learning to fly inverted.

 

On reading Peter Jenkins Aerobatics book I spent a lot of time of trimming, in particular finding as close to a neutral CG as possible using the techniques he describes. Once done it stopped the plane diving for the ground when inverted minimising the forward pressure needed on the elevator, probably obvious to the experienced but something as a newbie I hadn't considered and made flying inverted a lot less frantic.

[RottenRow]

There is a saying we often use when flying a model, especially when trying out something new.

 

“Stay three mistakes high” …. in other words, giving yourself plenty of height to start with help stop the ground getting in the way too early!

You can then gradually do the manoeuvre at lower altitudes as you get more proficient at it.

 

It’s best to try to avoid finishing the inverted run by a half loop out (unless you specifically want to carry out what is known as a split S) because you don’t want this to become your standard ‘get-out’, as it tends to fail at lower altitudes!

 

Brian.

[leccyflyer]

My flabber has never been so ghasted as to read that your first attempts to fly inverted are at 20 feet 😲. I don't think I've ever flown inverted at 20 feet - maybe at a hundred feet, but certainly not at 20 feet.

 

As the guys say - practice that sort of thing at three mistakes high.👍

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, PDB said:

This helped me massively when learning to fly inverted.

 

On reading Peter Jenkins Aerobatics book I spent a lot of time of trimming, in particular finding as close to a neutral CG as possible using the techniques he describes. Once done it stopped the plane diving for the ground when inverted minimising the forward pressure needed on the elevator, probably obvious to the experienced but something as a newbie I hadn't considered and made flying inverted a lot less frantic.

 

Agreed. the importance of trimming before you try to learn inverted cannot be expressed too strongly.

 

Assuming you are using a fairly standard aerobatic model with a semi or fully symmetrical wing section, the model should only need a very small amount of down elevator to maintain height inverted with the motor/engine at mid throttle to give cruise speed (it shouldn't need full power). If it immediately dives for the deck when you roll it overrequiring a boatload of down, the CG can safely come back. Adjust it in small increments using a suitably sized trim weight - don't move the CG back more than 2-3mm in one go!

 

As the CG comes back you will also find the elveator becomes more sensitive, so be prepared to reduce the maximum throw too. Whilst trimming at the field you can do that using the rates on the TX rates, but once you have the CG and elevator response nailed, go back and optimise the physical linkage in the workshop so you are mimising slop and using the full resolution and torque of your servo. Target using the smallest servo arm and the biggest elevator control horn you can get away with to achieve the maximum elevator movement that you need based on the trim flights.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

One other tip that can help... If you are a "thumber" rather than a "pincher", bring your thumb back slightly so that it is sitting on the rear top corner of the stick* (closest to you) rather than right on top. This is slightly easier if you are a mode 1 (throttle on the right) flyer as you don't need to steer with that stick as well during inverted flight, but it's still possible if you use mode 2.

 

This helps newcomers learning to fly inverted because it makes it harder to "panic pull" on the elevator when things get too tricky to handle, a response that can result in a half loop straight into terra firma. However, as suggested above by other posters, the critical bit is making sure you enter high enough so you can exit anyway you need to without requiring a binbag recovery...!

 

* - Important point: I'm not suggesting you learn to fly like this permanently, just use this technique whilst you are learning inverted flight.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by MattyB

[J D 8]

           And just don't do it with your 80 inch Scale warbird, Full size do not, were not designed for extended inverted flight despite what you see in the movie "Reach for the sky. A club member once tried with a DB Hurricane and impacted with a sheep!  Farmer was compensated for fatal result to sheep and Hurricane.

[Cliff Bastow]

Slightly off topic but I am practicing for my B at the min and though I am an experienced flyer I have noticed I have a definite one way itis. I am much happier flying any manoeuvre right to left rather than left to right including inverted.

[paul devereux]

4 hours ago, PDB said:

This helped me massively when learning to fly inverted.

 

On reading Peter Jenkins Aerobatics book I spent a lot of time of trimming, in particular finding as close to a neutral CG as possible using the techniques he describes. Once done it stopped the plane diving for the ground when inverted minimising the forward pressure needed on the elevator, probably obvious to the experienced but something as a newbie I hadn't considered and made flying inverted a lot less frantic.

This is a very good point. I'm just speaking for myself here of course: I find my plane climbs under throttle (perhaps everybody's does) as it is trimmed to fly S&L on lower throttle settings. It is instinctive to speed up a little when inverted as there is more fear of adverse consequences of stalling, but the speeding up increases the tendency for the plane to lose altitude.

[paul devereux]

6 minutes ago, Cliff Bastow said:

Slightly off topic but I am practicing for my B at the min and though I am an experienced flyer I have noticed I have a definite one way itis. I am much happier flying any manoeuvre right to left rather than left to right including inverted.

I've always thought this might be a consequence of flying C/L planes as a child! Another theory I believe is something to do with our natural right-handedness, and explains why the pilot sits on the left because that is their best observation point when manoeuvring on the ground or the air ( I am happy to be corrected on this, if there is one thing I have learned on this forum is that many of my beliefs, whether about car controls layout, airfield safety or  CAA legislation, are erroneous!).

[Rich Griff]

Are you trying to do a marathon just as you have learnt to walk properly I wonder...

 

Once I had learnt to take off, fly around with discipline and structure, and learnt to loop well ( inside loop ) not to mention landing reliably, I would at a good height loop, but stay inverted at the top, and raggidly at first, stay inverted for some distance, then complete the loop.

 

Yes a 3 channel r+e+t high boy will do this...

 

Eventually I could fly inverted successfully, reliably and safely, expanding the flight envelope of the high boy, figure if eigths in every orientation apart from vertical.

 

I was able to "fly the socks" of the high boy so progressed to a 4 channel "shadow", a wot4 look alike. I started my training from scratch again with quick progress.

 

At one point I seriously considered an extra under carriage mounted on top of the wing to land inverted ?

 

Be more practised at the fundimentals before trying new tricks.

 

Slope soaring 2 channel r +e 72 inch span was a similar inverted training technique but the e+a soarer was very easy. The crows tried to fly inverted, falling from the sky noisely. One crashed into the slopes stunted oaks !

 

Over to you...

Edited June 23, 2023 by Rich Griff

[Nigel Heather]

Firstly practice on a simulator - doesn't have the pucker factor but it will build muscle memory.

 

Also what plane are using - some really don't like being upside down, want to fly into the ground and need a lot of elevator to keep them level, but at the other end of the scale you have planes that are equally happy either way up and need little to no elevator to keep them flat.

 

A flat bottom wing won't like being upside down whereas a symmetrical wing with little to no incidence will be perfectly happy either way up.  A semi-symmetrical wing somewhere in the middle.

 

High wings generally bad.  Low wings usually better.  Mid wing usually best.

[Brian Cooper]

This is the way I teach kids how to do it:

 

Fly towards yourself until it is about 70-100 yards from you, and pull up into generous half a loop. 

The model will now be higher, inverted and you will be viewing it from the rear. It will also be going away from you which it isn't as scary as coming towards you.

The ailerons will still work in their correct (left/right) sense. . . All you have to do is keep the wings level and apply enough down elevator to prevent it from dropping out of the sky.  

 

In the early stages, I encourage them to apply slightly too much down elevator..... the model will climb, which is much nicer than watching it drop due to not enough down elevator. 

 

The size of the smile on their faces denotes when they have "got it". 

 

Once the art of flying straight and level inverted has been mastered, we move on to more adventurous (inverted) stuff. 

.

[Mike T]

I disagree a bit with the 'neutral CG' notion.  If, in order to fly inverted you have to put a little, continuous forward pressure on the stick to remain S&L, its a constant reminder that, in this scenario, 'forward = up'.

 

I fly a foamy 'F3A' practice aircraft which is CG neutral and (to me) flying inverted seems uncomfortable if I'm not leaning on the stick a bit.

 

Also, as a general rule, if you get 'spooked' while inverted, always roll out!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Low level anything is higher risk, even some landings would've been better done higher. 😉

Flying inverted isn't difficult, coming out is where danger lies, agree with those saying practise of top of a loop, make it a habit of rolling out and you're lessening any risk.

[GrumpyGnome]

I have NEVER flown inverted at 20 feet, unless indoors....

 

@paul devereux what aeroplane are you trying this with?

[Ron Gray]

4 hours ago, paul devereux said:

I find my plane climbs under throttle

Then maybe you need a small throttle - elevator mix to compensate.

 

4 hours ago, paul devereux said:

perhaps everybody's does)

No

 

4 hours ago, paul devereux said:

It is instinctive to speed up a little when inverted

Uh, no it's not.

[Bruce Collinson]

2 things helped me.   Concentrate utterly on the el stick being a bit forward (most of mine need elevator in a turn more than when upright).   Keep leaning on it, it's a lot more comfortable to ease off a bit if it climbs than to start putting loads of down el if it loses height.   DON'T be distracted.   Second, a decent speed is a lot safer than a slow crawl, 2/3 typically.   Same for rolls, I find.

 

BTC

[Simon Chaddock]

The characteristics of the plane have a considerable influence.

A slow flying stable plane with a Clark Y wing section will fly inverted but needs a lot of up elevator and extra power to do so. The 'feel' of such a plane when flying inverted will be completely different as well.

[paul devereux]

2 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

I have NEVER flown inverted at 20 feet, unless indoors....

 

@paul devereux what aeroplane are you trying this with?

Wot 4 foam-E. So it is very light and agile. It will almost turn it its own length - maybe a bit of an exaggeration.

Edited June 23, 2023 by paul devereux

[EvilC57]

As the chap who taught me to fly over 20 years ago once said to me, when flying inverted you have to remember that down is up and up is expensive!

 

He also taught me as I think others have said above, to move or straighten your thumb behind the stick slightly when the model is inverted, so that you can only really push it away from you (which you may have to do to maintain level flight anyway). Works for me, don’t know about others.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by EvilC57

[kc]

I think the important thing is to train yourself always to roll out of inverted.

[John Stainforth]

6 hours ago, Mike T said:

I disagree a bit with the 'neutral CG' notion.  If, in order to fly inverted you have to put a little, continuous forward pressure on the stick to remain S&L, its a constant reminder that, in this scenario, 'forward = up'.

 

I fly a foamy 'F3A' practice aircraft which is CG neutral and (to me) flying inverted seems uncomfortable if I'm not leaning on the stick a bit.

 

Also, as a general rule, if you get 'spooked' while inverted, always roll out!

I agree with you here. All the models I have flown inverted, even those with the CG quite far back, have required a little push on the elevator stick. I say "push, push, push" to myself when inverted. If I get too close to the ground I just push harder. That works well for me.